PPCChat | Inside the Expert’s Mind | 28th January 2025

Posted January 29th, 2025 by Amita & filed under PPCChat.

A lot has unfolded in the world of PPC and related areas over the past week. In this week’s PPCChat session, host Julie F Bacchini invited PPC professionals to share their thoughts on various topics, including recent updates to PMax on Google and Microsoft, the potential impact of DeepSeek AI on search and ad platforms, and how uncertainties can influence marketing campaigns.

Q1 How to have boundaries with brain rot and uncertainty? And how that affects our marketing campaigns.

How to protect your mental health when everything feels out of control, you mean? @NeptuneMoon

Yes, and then acknowledging if we’re feeling it consumers are too and our performance it’s going to be all over the place. @runnerkik

I’m so grateful for my husband who tag teams with me on who focuses on politics. @navahhopkins

w/r/t the general populace – it’s been that way for…. a long time, if not forever.for us personally? some days you eat the bear, other times, you take a break and realize that because the bear has always been eating you it’s OK to take a break. @ferkungamaboobo

I think that is a good point to acknowledge that consumer behavior is being impacted by a number of things right now. @NeptuneMoon

and when you have to power through, it’s ok to realize that it’s going to hurt you in the long run and prep for that. @ferkungamaboobo

For brain rot – it’s extremely important to have a talk with the phone. Delete social media apps from the phone or have Opal, ScreenZen, etc.I fell into the deep dark doom scroll (giving myself the narrative that it’s my job to stay updated etc etc) There are other ways and better ways. @alimehdimukadam

Trying to cut back on doom scrolling social media, and paying a lot less attention to the national news lately. @JeffreyHain

And yes it’s our profession but there’s also that saying – those who deal, don’t use. @alimehdimukadam

I’ll admit – getting Google to admit they were wrong about PMax placement exclusions documentation did wonders for me. It renewed my faith that there’s a point to still doing the work @navahhopkins

Nah but alright, then we’re admitting that we’re doing active harm with our work. Which is fine, but that’s a real rough POV. Which, to be clear, we mostly do harm with our work. @ferkungamaboobo

SAME ALI! Got a dumbphone about 8 months ago and have felt soooo much less anxiety – I’m on social, but it’s on the computer only – intentional action is key. @JacobSanders

If I didn’t have access to Optmyzr data to share and be helpful, I’d have been out long ago @navahhopkins

And @navahhopkins I genuinely believe that your company does GOOD. @runnerkik

but while there’s still the opportunity to have the ear of ad platforms and share trends based on big sample sizes, I can do more good on the inside than screaming bloody murder about broken ethics on the outside. @navahhopkins

We aren’t doing harm. We are running ads on a medium of media. And that helps small businesses.But we are incentivizing the systems that get users to stay hooked so more and more ads can be shown? Freewheeling here. @alimehdimukadam

different people do different levels of harm (including no harm) @navahhopkins

I think the dumb phone, cell phone addiction category is gonna explode a lot more. It’s the biggest modern day crisis and it’s not confined to media consumption but also work emails, slack, staying connected 24*7 etc. @alimehdimukadam

Our industry is rife with con artists and click bait bros who 100% do harm. Those who help brands connect with their customers as effectively as possible are not doing harm. @navahhopkins

That’s why the DATA LAYER is where we’re gonna find peace and go to war for the right causes – but a ton of marketers don’t know shit about data interpretation/literacy and the like – and that lack is a hole for anxiety and worry to fill – rather than seeing it as a necessary gap to bridge. @JacobSanders

And this is coming from a JAZZ MUSICIAN who failed all the maths – once I started seeing the power of data, and the abuse thereof – it got me hella energized. @JacobSanders

Please like, follow, comment & repost if you want my next opinion. I can see both sides of the good & bad. Sometimes you need a timeline cleanse. I actively go and engage with other topics to get a mix. Or give feedback on the post – not for me. @alimehdimukadam

Q2 Another great topic and question would be what to do if an advertiser that you’re doing ppc for takes a side that makes you uncomfortable.

I’ve been in this position many times – it’s entirely dependent on your level of employment (work for yourself or someone else), as well as where you draw the lines between work and personal boundaries. @navahhopkins

I am still recommending people to advertise on Meta and Amazon even though I as a consumer no longer pay for Prime/buy on Amazon or go on any Meta platform save for work. @navahhopkins

I agree with Navah that sometimes what you want to do is not what you are able to do in a situation where you do not agree with something a client is doing. That can be hard to process mentally. @NeptuneMoon

One thing I think about is that it’s about steps. Obviously, there’s no-gos and ground to stand for. But for the hemming and hawing moments, are you doing things 1% “better” than yesterday. An example: I’m working on a supplement company right now through a partner. I really don’t love supplements, but I’ve been able to get them to at least update their copy to be within the law, get their campaigns to be appropriate for their audiences, have the agency treat the client a bit better — all these things are steps in the right direction. @ferkungamaboobo

And they’re like, baseline steps. But that’s where they were, and this is where they are. Progress. @ferkungamaboobo

If you’re at a large company, you can ask to recuse yourself; if you’re at a small company, you can raise the flag to people in power directly. @ferkungamaboobo

An example? It’s too broad. Coz clients and advertisers end up taking a lot of sides that make me uncomfortable regularly and I have to keep pushing back or reason or get data to prove why it may not be prudent now. @alimehdimukadam

Q3 What do we think about the recent changes to PMax on both Google and Microsoft?

DOJ is going to do jack sh*t about the monopoly and Microsoft realized they had to release features to make smart shopping going away viable. @navahhopkins

Pmax is STILL new. I know that sounds crazy to say because it’s been here for 4 years ish? But I’m always happy for updates especially adding negatives and more control but seeing how they work in reality is another question because they’re giving us control in an area. that still a black box. @runnerkik

(i still am baffled that PMax is used by professional advertisers). it’s a great tool for businesses that don’t know what they’re doing. @ferkungamaboobo

I guess to add to what I was saying the changes and updates could be illusions of control, but they could also break a campaign type that’s something that was meant to not be controlled. @ferkungamaboobo I disagree only because if that’s where we’re heading, we have to learn how to use it. @runnerkik

PMax is 100% a useful tool for bias free investment. It serves a purpose. It should not be 100% of your ad spend. @navahhopkins

Maybe I’m just guilty of that kind of who moved my cheese mentality that I’m constantly calling out. @ferkungamaboobo

The new controls are more theater than much control, but it is what it is. PMax is not meant to have much user input. @NeptuneMoon

PMax was born out of Google being frustrated no one was doing YouTube. @navahhopkins

Well, I also don’t think YouTube is performance media but I’m a minority there. it’s incredible for brand, but you gotta be real judicious with it. and treat it more like hulu than search or even display. @ferkungamaboobo

it’s a way to get you to test the waters without committing a full budget. And those sleeping on YouTube are great for those leaning in. Cheaper prices and easier to pick up better placements. @navahhopkins

The reality is Google, and all ad platforms for that matter, really want advertisers to enter a few key pieces of information and their credit card info and let the system do its thing. It is all moving in this direction. @NeptuneMoon

DoorDash my business to fame? WHERE DO I SIGN UP!!! @JacobSanders

I have been doing PPC since it literally began and these past few years have been a whirlwind of change. Both externally with data and privacy regulation and lawsuits and in the platforms themselves. We are at a tipping point. @NeptuneMoon

I loved the automation side. In fact I was overjoyed when Target CPA had come out & that made me a fan of Google. Felt like magic.What I don’t personally like is a blackbox – especially when money is on the line. And I definitely hate that it’s pushed on small unsuspecting businesses with calls and whatnot. @alimehdimukadam

The black box and YoY escalating PPC prices … good for the platforms, bad for businesses. @JeffreyHain

I think my question is more “What’s the monthly maintenance justification for pmax” given that it’s designed as a one-time setup? @ferkungamaboobo

PMax and all these other features in my opinion are a PMs work or a way for them to add extra, show new growth, get promotion, etc. Coz you gotta show something new every year, right? How will Google Ads use AI? Enhancing existing algo – meh .New campaign type – share price go brrrrrr @alimehdimukadam

The problem, IMO, is that not all advertisers are created equal and the way the platforms have evolved their tech is based on an assumption that they are. And it is ok for a platform to develop their offerings to serve one kind of advertiser better than another. But the framing that all of the changes are equally good for all types of advertisers drives me nuts. @NeptuneMoon

Yesss!
Coz Google employees – the senior folks talk to agency folks and work closely with brands spending X amount of money or higher. And I am sure those discussions would have involved feedback of managing a lot of campaigns, manual data pulling, etc. etc. coz it does get intense at a big scale. Have done that. The answer to that was automating processes on the campaign manager’s end. It ended up automating the campaign itself….@alimehdimukadam

I’ve been able to make Pmax work on eCommerce a few times. Right now, I have a retail client that’s consistently gotten $27 CPAs on Pmax and $25-$33 CPAs on super relevant non-brand intent keywords. Anecdotal and not my go-to strategy (usually it’s like my 3rd or 4th choice when I’m in experimenting mode) but I’ve been able to make it work when I have strong audience signals, good brand, good creative, etc. I’ll use it intermittently on B2B SaaS but I need to turn off a lot of features to reign in + I need to feel strongly about my seed data. Good 1st party lists, good enhanced conversions that are accurate (which is a lot of work when you’re working with longer sales cycles). @timmhalloran

Realized after I wrote that, that didn’t answer the original question at all. @timmhalloran

What do we think about this whole DeepSeek AI and what, if any impact, might it have on search and/or ad platforms?

I think it’s hilarious. aside from the crashing economy of course…and the likely job loss. @navahhopkins

With TikTok going away, it’s a new way for the Chinese to extract more information from unsuspecting users. @JeffreyHain

A hubris course correction is enjoyable to watch. But agreed on economic impact that will effect real people and businesses. @NeptuneMoon

But in a world that had TikTok kissing the ring, and all the US tech bros falling over themselves over their billions…this was a needed wake-up call that we need to start investing in us again (as a US consumer) @navahhopkins

0 impact, people have said Nvidia was a bubble for about a year, CEOs gonna CEO ++ lol we can be extremely racist now and no one cares. it’s all theatre, and I’m not one for panto. @ferkungamaboobo

Tech is always about disruption. All of the current tech kings were once the disruptors. And they have forgotten that part. @NeptuneMoon

It’s amazing!
(I am pro AI – with human in the loop)What I find funny is how it got ranked as #1 so quickly on App Store. And DeepSeek is gonna collect a lot more data and info than TikTok ever did. @alimehdimukadam

I am all for AI that doesn’t burn the planet like the current US crop does. @NeptuneMoon

@alimehdimukadam 100% agree.. @NeptuneMoon

Let’s not forget how people also like to be contrarian, especially now and especially in the US. So using Chinese apps as an action of rebellion is not thought past the rebellion part. @NeptuneMoon

DeepSeek collects your keystroke patterns @NeptuneMoon

The disturbing part about DeepSeek is the amount of coverage regarding the fall of Nvidia’s stock price, not the ramifications of using another Chinese app that collects data. @JeffreyHain

Let that sink in. @NeptuneMoon

AI is just like a human baby: infinite potential for good or evil. And the sooner we start treating AI like a human baby instead of a replacement for humans, the better off all will be. That said, I’m not surprised China invested aggressively in green tech. The answer to winning at AI is being green. @navahhopkins

I mean, so does Facebook. and they work directly with the NSA. @ferkungamaboobo

Okay, yeah I am proud of this call I made on Friday evening. 2/2 for crash + Apple. @alimehdimukadam

To be fair, China did not do this to be green. It worked around export bans of the powerful chips. It found a way to do more with less. That is uses less energy is a happy coincidence. @NeptuneMoon

I’m not saying they did it with kindness in their heart – this was a pragmatic survival choice. Investing in green tech (which they’re actively doing and on pace to beat the US now that Trump undid everything) is how you can mitigate the huge environmental costs of leaning into AI @navahhopkins

Am I tripping or do I remember ZOOM being called out for this security risk – and then Google Drive is a vector that was already being used to extract info from US – didn’t they breach all major telecomms and then Trump shut down the investigation – paying attention is a form of torture, me thinks. @JacobSanders

China cares not about environmental costs though. Again, they want to be competitive and not have to import tech (like EVs) and be able to sell in markets that will allow them to. @NeptuneMoon

Yup, working theory is – they were running multiple clusters/experiments. And one of them worked. They released the cost associated with that one cluster. But there were definitely 100 horses running in that race. @alimehdimukadam

imo the bigger thing to me is just why do we create so much junk. I didn’t care enough to write something, you didn’t care enough to read it. @ferkungamaboobo

it’s AI on both sides and an automated bot responding. don’t learn anything, don’t research anything, don’t think, just respond. @ferkungamaboobo

GREAT COMMENT REID! DELVE! @JacobSanders

AI is being shoved into EVERYTHING because US companies want to justify their extreme investment in it. It is a case of “see – everyone is using it” rather than actual demand being there. @NeptuneMoon

If AI is like electricity, then there are many ways to generate it. And innovation won’t stop here. What is missing from the whole conversation is – the cost of having your own open-sourced GPT secure – has gone down by a lot. The ramifications on that on jobs is enormous. @alimehdimukadam

I will say this – I prefer the experience of “searching” on AI platforms over searching on Google. and I find myself struggling more and more to get useful answers on Google. @navahhopkins

Data gets sent to China if you use Deepseek’s app or WebUIBut you can download the model and have it run in your own secure cloud. @alimehdimukadam

@navahhopkins And that will be a HUGE problem for Google if more people start to feel that way. @NeptuneMoon

well, that’s also because the entire web is AI spam again. @ferkungamaboobo

@navahhopkins agree. Recent Google searches are way off the mark and return irrelevant info. @JeffreyHain

and every time Google tries to do anything, every single publisher gets up in arms about it because their spam is better than everyone else’s. @ferkungamaboobo

We also have to remember that we are nowhere near the average citizen when it comes to searching. We know so much more and frankly expect so much more than the average Joe or Joanne. @NeptuneMoon

I just remember so well all the fallout from panda haha. @ferkungamaboobo

I find that more and more the average person doesn’t “search” – they consume. @navahhopkins

I’ve stopped using Google Search tbh. Only do it for some local searches or work related. They fumbled with Bard & AI Overviews initially – was a knee-jerk reaction coz Microsoft went with OpenAI.Now it is better. But the 10links web is definitely ending. @alimehdimukadam

I watch my husband search for things from time to time (he is not technical) to remind myself of what the actual baseline is. @NeptuneMoon

The art of questioning information and its efficacy isn’t really present in most people . @navahhopkins

But like, idk. I was looking for a digital camera, not knowing anything really. and every search result was AI. nothing matters anymore. @ferkungamaboobo

Ironically – had you searched on GPT or Perplexity, you’d likely have gotten a better result. even if it cost a bottle of water to do so. @navahhopkins

No, I would have gotten the same out-of-stock models and feature sets. @ferkungamaboobo

@NeptuneMoon – Same; I watch my wife do ‘searches’. She types complete sentences/questions into the search bar. @JeffreyHain

it’s drawing on the same databases of information. @ferkungamaboobo

Old will be new. I am sure there will be a niche carved out soon for all things pre-AIDumb phone. Social Feed with only friend updates and no For You Search results with only actual results with links.@alimehdimukadam

Inertia is a powerful force too. People ‘Google’ things when they mean search. That kind of top-of-mind, first thought is hard to erode without help from that top brand. And by help I mean either scandal or complete erosion of quality to the point where even regular folks are like “well this sucks now I will actively find something different to use” @NeptuneMoon

Privacy/geopolitical considerations aside, I think the fact that they created an LLM that could compete with the fastest growing company in the world, with $6 million & 3 ~ month time frame is what freaked out the sector. And by extension, the investors with dollar signs in their thought bubbles. I also think it’s a natural correction, that probably needed to happen regardless sooner or later. Wake-up calls are good for competition. Competition is good for consumers (usually). Not sure how it’ll impact search, but I don’t see search in its current form being around in a decade. Everything seems to be moving towards personalized learning sandboxes with natural language convos. Leaves less room for listicles. Wait till personalization includes prompt engineering that filters out anything that has affiliate links, mentions, SEO-obvious copy, etc. Kinda happening already with how much Reddit has skyrocketed because it’s being appended to everything nowadays. @timmhalloran

But it doesn’t cost a bottle of water. Training the model does, running it doesn’t. It’s more energy intensive, yes but not that much. The whole environment, monetary discussions and even energy consumption issues are all around training Not running. I am very sure Facebook ads manager takes more server cost than a perplexity search. @alimehdimukadam

But they have to continually be trained to stay up do date and certainly if the expectation is that they eventually supplant search? @NeptuneMoon

No, companies may choose to train it continually if they want and that is only for the frontier models. But a perplexity is essentially taking top Google results – summarizing it for you. Google’s bot crawls webpages repeatedly. That’s continuous. But consumer-facing apps don’t train continually. It’s not very different from having a machine learning algorithm in the cloud. @alimehdimukadam

@alimehdimukadam Interesting. @NeptuneMoon

Model training involves the cost, energy, capital. But once the model is trained and ready – then it’s just like any other application running on maybe a faster processor you can say . People have installed DeepSeek on their phones. @alimehdimukadam

They are bringing a nuclear power plant back online somewhat near me solely to power Microsoft AI @NeptuneMoon

Yes, but thanks to DeepSeek – all those notions may get shattered. @alimehdimukadam

Also, I would be very leery about installing DeepSeek on my phone…@NeptuneMoon

You can run it locally if that’s your interest. I’ve done somewhat similar things with AI art stuff though I wonder how much my high-mid-range GPU is actually up to the task. @ferkungamaboobo

No the open source version like your private version. It’s like you can use Microsoft Word online through office 365 or buy MS Word like we used to with DVDs that runs on your PC and data does not get sent to China even if you connect it to Internet. @alimehdimukadam

Coz you purchased the software and installed it. Now there is no connection with software creator. One time exe file. @alimehdimukadam

I think AI models, especially chatbots, need continuous updating to be relevant. Queries change, situations change and business operations change. @JeffreyHain

Yeah but so does Google Search if we use that argument. Coz Google bot keeps crawling again and again. @alimehdimukadam

@alimehdimukadam – agree. If Google is continually updating, then so should chat bots. @JeffreyHain

I think we have deep seated biases about certain types of tools we need to get over to have reasonable discussions about how to solve these problems. It’s the same TikTok/Meta problem. I also think there’s a real issue with folks not understanding that AI has been here for years. It’s the skin that’s changed. @navahhopkins

To continue my point above, humans in this scenario have to become the orchestrators, and the ability to see the big picture and precisely instruct these more agent-like AI systems to produce what you want. Thus becomes much more important in the future for us as marketing consultants. This is already happening in software development. It’s now possible to get these AI systems to produce much higher-quality code. As human coder, my job is to, again, understand the big picture and to give the AI models all of the required context and precise descriptions of what I need. o1 ja R1 class models are much, much better than GPT-4 or Claude Sonnet to take that description and give me the code I wanted. @SeppoPuusa

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