PPCChat | Red Flags & Problem Clients | 29th August 2023

Handling clients is the biggest challenge for PPC experts. During this week’s PPCChat discussion, host Julie F Bacchini sought experts’ views on red flag deal breakers, what they consider to be a red flag while interacting with a client, what traits can make a problem client and more.

Q1: What do you consider to be a red flag when interacting with a potential client?

Asking us to train them on what we do. @beyondthepaid

Wanting instant or guaranteed results. @beyondthepaid

Using pet names – calling me “dear,” “honey,” “sweetie” etc. is an immediate disqualification. @revaminkoff

For me, it’s when they lead with skepticism, not an initial olive branch of trust. What I say to address this is, “You are an expert in your brand, company, and industry. I’m an expert in Google Ads and SEO.”Yes, trust is built over time, but a healthy relationship is forged at first by both sides leaning into the unknown. @teabeeshell

Immediately talking crap about their last agency or agencies is a huge one for me. @NeptuneMoon

Let me count the ways:

1. Doesn’t have budget set aside for ads
2. Been through a lot of agencies in a short period of time. Some people have bad luck but that is the exception to the norm
3. Have unrealistic goals. The smaller the business, the more this happens I find
4. Wants to tell us how to do our job and micromanage
5. Just an awful website but won’t change anything on it. @duanebrown

No tracking @revaminkoff

So many things, but a few that come to mind:

• When someone gets on the phone and tells you what they think they need, and don’t ask questions about what I think about the account/business scenario.
• When someone assumes I will take the work on.
• When someone who clearly does not have experience in PPC starts throwing around words like quality score @MicheleJaeger1

Agree with the promised results and pet names.  I’d add constant messages at all times of the day/night. If they can’t respect work/life balance as a prospect, no way they’ll respect it as a client. @navahf

Also balking at signing a contract (our contracts are not super long term and offer termination with 30 day notice either way). @NeptuneMoon

When they tell you how to do our job bc “marketing is easy”. This includes how to structure campaigns, set up, how/what to optimize…all of it. @HeatherCox

Good point @duanebrown – I struggle hard with folks who have no idea what their budget should be. @navahf

Wanting to have 5 calls/meetings before signing on with me. No. You get one discovery call and maybe a quick follow-up. You want more? Become a client. @NeptuneMoon

“I don’t believe in PPC/SEO/Social….but I’m told I have to” @navahf

People who are hyper-focused on internal adwords numbers. I recognize that it’s hard to not be focused on that, but I think it’s important to gauge if the client is open to looking at the performance more holistically. @MicheleJaeger1

@navahf That’s the WORST. You’re constantly having to battle with them. @HeatherCox

E.G. are they going to be a good student or an obnoxious one. @MicheleJaeger1

When they say how they think things should be done, but then add “…but you’re the expert” and it’s like they’re daring you to disagree with them. @robert_brady

“We’ve spoken to other agencies and here is what they’ve promised us. What can you promise we’ll get?” @marketingsoph

Big website issues or really bad UX is a pretty big red flag – that can take forever to fix if they are willing to fix it at all. @revaminkoff

But really, @mel66 hit the #1 answer with wanting guaranteed results.  @beyondthepaid

When they say something like “if we could just get our ads to work, we would be so successful”@MicheleJaeger1

“I saw ____ and they said this. What do you think” – this one is insidious because many of us are friends with each other and we want to support our industry friends, but at the same time if the advice won’t work for their account it can be tough not to debate the strategy and you know you’re always going to have to explain the strategy you’re running in their account against a thought leader. @navahf

@revaminkoff If I see big website issues I will always bring it up in the initial call as an issue and see what their reaction is. If they are clearly unwilling to even consider it might be a problem, I will politely bounce. @NeptuneMoon

1. Asks for discounts. My worst clients in the past always asked for discounted rates and had the most demands and were the hardest to work with. My rate is 2.5x times higher than when I started in 2019, and I get fewer requests for discounts now. Companies that hire me value my experience and what I do.

2. Standoffish/arrogant execs & founders (bad personality, think they know everything)

3. Founders that don’t understand their financials and set ridiculous KPIs (ex: client wants to run Meta ads. Product sells for $10 and has 20% margin. Founder expects me to make paid channels work for them that have never been profitable for them and never will be.)

4. CEOs that want to be involved in every decision of the work I’ll do – lack of trust/micromanager. @Austin_Dillman

Unrealistic goals/expectations around performance and/or timelines is the biggest for me. ex: “we want to drive $5 million in 2 months” when the account’s in bad shape or starting from scratch.@adclarke10

This is a wider industry issue but brands wanting free works; free account reviews,.. that some call audits. I don’t like working for free. Pay me if you want to know what I think. @duanebrown

Clients who from Day 1 talk like they’re doing you a favor if they hire you. @revaminkoff

That free work is half of why we don’t get respected as an industry and many have to compete on price to win. So many other professional service industries don’t do free work or have to compete on price. They are taken serious and people understand it’s a skill to do the work but if you don’t get paid for it then how we can expect clients to take it seriously. @duanebrown

@duanebrown Please tell me you said “I don’t. I work with people who value my expertise and will pay for it.” @NeptuneMoon

Expertise comes with a cost and huge benefit. @HeatherCox

I once had a potential client, who was a referral from a close personal friend mind you, actually say to me when talking about the price “Well if you don’t have the authority…” To which I said, “I am the authority and this is the price.” @NeptuneMoon

I’ve never given away an audit. I charge double-digit figures per channel audit. Typically leads to an ongoing retainer.I know lots of freelancers that give away audits. I put a lot of time and detail into them. Typically 40 slides of data, analysis, recommendations and next steps. If a potential client expected all of that free, they wouldn’t ever become a client in the first place because they already wouldn’t value what I do. @Austin_Dillman

@NeptuneMoon it happens often enough that I just explain why we don’t work for free and we want to focus on our paying clients. Plus we won’t have the band-witch to give everyone free work. The math doesn’t work out. Work-life balance is important. @duanebrown

@Austin_Dillman Sadly a lot of agencies and freelancers claim giving away the audit for free is how they win but if that is the only way you can win business… says a lot about your selling skills. We need to stop the free work in this industry, @duanebrown

@duanebrown Totally agree! Audit work is extremely valuable. My pitch is that I’m going to help them save money in the short term with optimizations, then help them make more money with scaling opportunities. @Austin_Dillman

Q2: How do you handle red flags when they arise?

I start every conversation (red flag or no) from a place of empathy. Understanding how the thing they’re asking for will help them (or at least how they perceive it will). If it’s just a difficult person, I walk away, however, 9/10 a red flag can be conquered with a calm tone and genuine interest in understanding how one can help the person behind the brand. @navahf

That said, I’m also very upfront about what qualifies as an SQL for me and make it clear early on if I think I’ll be referring business out (one eventual consulting client paid me $1k because I took the time to explain what he would need and why I didn’t think I was the right vendor for him). He eventually came back and insisted to work with me in the way I could work with him (even though other vendors would be able to fully support him) @navahf

I agree with @navahf in that I will try to dig to find out what’s behind the red flag behaviour. Sometimes it is something that can be overcome through trust and understanding and sometimes it is not. @NeptuneMoon

If a red flag pops up, I usually try to understand more, and try to get at the root of their concern. Sometimes it just strengthens the red flag (e.g. if it’s price, they might just not be able to afford me), or if it’s something like the CEO thinking they know a lot about google ads, trying to get at that a little more. Then I can either turn the red flag into a yellow/green one, or further feel good about walking away. @MicheleJaeger1

Usually, we try to jump on a call (30 minutes max), as sometimes attitude and tone is hard to get across via emails, and it’s also easier to discuss more detailed things. You can get more detail and information from a call without feeling like you’ve grilled them too much. We make it feel casual, but it’s still a ‘formal’ process for us. This usually helps us gauge their personality too, to see if that’s going to be a good fit. @marketingsoph

I give people the natural opportunity to object. Things like…

• “It sounds like you’re looking for analysis of XYZ at no cost. Is that right?”
• “Those questions are great. Are you looking for training for you and or the team?”
• “Are you objecting because you don’t agree with the data or insights?”

…often lead to them clarifying what they are chasing. Either that, or it shines a light on the nature of their question/request. @teabeeshell

Be okay walking away. If you go into the conversation desperate, you might ignore red flags. If you’re secure, then you have the ability to work through a red flag or agree that you’re not the best fit. @robert_brady

Ask questions and find out why and what they think. Then just be honest with our POV and philosophy. Hiring an agency is like getting married. So lay your cards on the table and see what happens. @duanebrown

@robert_brady This is such an important lesson to learn! And it can be hard in the beginning and/or at a time when you really need the work to walk away.BUT…If you ever find yourself talking yourself into working with a potential client – walk away. Trust me on this. I’ve been independent for 24 years. Working with a terrible client will suck up too much energy and might prevent you from landing a great client. Not to mention what it can do to your mental health. @NeptuneMoon

Don’t deviate from your dealbreakers – if something is a dealbreaker, it’s ok to walk. There is a lot of business out there – something else will turn up. @revaminkoff 

What @NeptuneMoon said – working for terrible clients is like working for terrible bosses. It will burn you out. @beyondthepaid

I have a hard time saying no on the phone, and historically just said yes to anything (like kind of in a weird freeze mode). So now, I have a rule where I never say yes or no to anything over the phone and follow up with an email. I’m better at no now, so I’d like to start saying no on the phone more, but baby steps! @MicheleJaeger1

This probably goes against norms, but I lead with minimum retainer pricing before I even hop on a call. It saves me so much time. Eliminates the companies that don’t want to spend money. They usually open up about what they’re willing to spend. If it’s low, I’ll refer them to a lower-cost freelancer. If someone isn’t a good personality fit, I’ll throw out a ridiculous retainer/project fee and create a short-term SOW (3 months). If I miraculously get the deal, I can handle an annoying client for a few months. Sometimes they end up being better to work with than expected once you understand their fear/concerns. Many times execs are jerks on calls because they were burned by agencies or freelancers in the past.I was not great at identifying red flags and walking away from bad clients when I was new to freelancing. I just wanted to make some money. I’m way pickier these days and have no problems walking away from a deal. @Austin_Dillman

I do the same now @Austin_Dillman – lead with a minimum retainer price (and minimum spend bands). It’s really helped. @MicheleJaeger1

I ignore red flags a lot and then recognize them after the fact. @runnerkik

Q3: What red flag(s) are deal breakers for you and why?

1. Budget

2. Being rude/argumentative for no reason other than it makes them feel good

3. Not respecting time

Everything else can be worked out – but those three are lines in the sand for me. @navahf

Big ones for me are:

1. Co-managing accounts and/or work. Pay for services, provide feedback, but no two hands on the steering wheel.
2. Taking work and running with it. It’s okay to outgrow a partnership, but learning just enough to make the relationship obsolete is being a vampire. @teabeeshell

Intro calls that sound more like someone trying to give you marching orders. @MicheleJaeger1

1. Budget. The lower the retainer, the more work they expect.

2. Unrealistic growth goals. If I’m set up for failure before I even start, I won’t take it on. I usually address this in pitch calls.

3. Clients that want lots of meetings.

4. Lack of boundaries. Clients that expect you to be available 24/7. @teabeeshell

For me, deal breakers include:

1. Hammering me on the price. If they don’t value what I’m bringing to the table, I’m not interested.
2. Multiple contact points with final authority. I need one person who is in charge only.
3. Giving me a hard time about signing a contract. I’m always willing to discuss the language in any part of the contract document, but some are just not willing to sign to get started.
4. Not being willing to pay to get started. I bill up front and ongoing work is pre-billed as well.
5. Wanting me on their Slack or other requests that will make me available “on demand” for them. @NeptuneMoon

Lack of boundaries as  @Austin_Dillman said. Expecting us to drop everything around the clock at their whim. We are your partner, not your employee – and frankly if you treat employees that way I would not want to work for you.  @beyondthepaid

@beyondthepaid @Austin_Dillman I have language in my contracts about turnaround times, what actually constitutes an emergency and what kind of access they get at their contract level. It is all spelled out for this exact reason! @NeptuneMoon

@NeptuneMoon I love that, and am going to include that moving forward. @MicheleJaeger1

A few big one’s

1. To small of a budget
2. Wants to do comms on Slack or Whatsapp
3. Won’t fill out our intake form
4. Something I don’t want to sell or goes against our values
5. Wants to meet every week but doesn’t want to pay for the time. There is a reason we do monthly or fortnightly meetings over weekly. @duanebrown

@NeptuneMoon we did that at my previous agency. working to implement it at my current one. An SLA on turn times is a must. @beyondthepaid

@MicheleJaeger1 That language comes from my web design days, but it works just as well for PPC! @NeptuneMoon

@NeptuneMoon Outrageous payment terms are on my red flag list. Usually big companies with slow internal processes. Had a global 500 business want net 90 payment terms. Talked them down to net 60 with the caveat that I would bill two months of retainers, two months in advance. Oct 1, I send invoices for Nov and Dec. Essentially creates net 30 for Nov invoice and net 0 for December. lolNow they usually pay within 15-30 days, way ahead of the net 60 terms. @Austin_Dillman

Some points

1. The relentless haggler. Our prices are transparent and we aren’t prepared to make adjustments to suit an individual’s want. This especially relates to those who don’t agree to payment terms and conditions.
2. Bad fit (personality). We’re a team of mainly young, women and won’t accept misogyny or inappropriate comments. For example comments on our hair or tattoos…
3. Unrealistic expectations which can’t be brought down to reality. Better to be safe than sorry with these types of potential clients. @marketingsoph

Few deal breakers include

1. 1 sided partnerships. If they check out after launch and you rarely hear from them.
2. Lack of payment.
3. Bad attitudes.
4. Being told how to do the job we are hired to do. @HeatherCox

Not respecting time and boundaries, busy work with no purpose our outcome, blaming with no responsibility, not paying in time and “like I said emails”, also scope creep. @runnerkik

Q4: What traits do you find make a problem client?

Wants results but does not want to change anything. Being inflexible won’t get you far. @duanebrown

Clients that want to treat me like an employee are problematic. Often this can be addressed and the client’s behavior can be improved. Sometimes, not though.Clients that are not interested in being part of the process. I am a lead gen PPCer and I need client feedback! @NeptuneMoon

In no particular order:

• Lack of trust
• Lack of curiosity
• Unwillingness to learn
• Unwillingness to change opinions based on new data/insights. @teabeeshell

Lots of things already discussed:

• People who are condescending (can sometimes turn around, but it’s a risk)
• People who are scatter-brained and have a hard time being present in the conversation, and jump from topic to topic, or go down rabbit holes (I see this with CEOs of start-ups a lot)
• Rigid thinking (mostly in assuming their business problem is external to them)
• Major one around boundaries and expectations of availability. @MicheleJaeger1

Few traits are

1. Low product cost with low margins. Very hard to be profitable and get a solid ROAS.
2. Limited/niche market. Can’t reach them using the channels I specialize in
3. Highly-regulated industries – makes advertising extremely difficult in Google/Meta
4. Awful website that’s not set up to convert: I can only do so much on the ad side. I can’t make your site convert. I usually try to sell them on bringing in a CRO expert that I partner with for landing pages.
5. No product differentiation in a crowded market.
6. Overpriced products. @Austin_Dillman

For me

• Telling us what to do tactically (bids, etc.)/being too prescriptive
• Unable to install tracking on the site
• expecting immediate answers
• Unresponsive / ignoring our questions or calls @beyondthepaid

Clients who expect the world on a shoestring budget, as well as folks who refuse to own their responsibility (following up on leads, website, etc).The absolute worst are rude people though. I will tolerate a lot until someone is rude. @navahf

How about clients who refuse to acknowledge that they have competition? This is particularly bad when their web experience is inferior to that of their online competitors. @NeptuneMoon

1. Gaslighting 2. High turnover 3. Rushing a big decision 4. Not paying on time 5. Asking super specific questions about what keywords I’ll bid on, what campaigns…anything really ridged 6. Needing many reports for different stakeholders 7. Constantly breaking website. @runnerkik

Clients who go into the account and make changes on their own – this happens with smaller clients and is so infuriating. @beyondthepaid

Enterprise clients don’t do that. @beyondthepaid

OMG @navahf I had a client years ago in an industry that was rapidly changing. We did a ton of paid market research (with a professional market researcher) and identified the growing areas of their industry.I set up PPC to target these growing areas. Produced a ton of leads. The salespeople would only follow up on the leads from the dying parts of the industry because they were familiar with that and didn’t care to learn the new parts. The CEO was lamenting to me on performance. He said, “well, the guys don’t want to follow up on those leads.” To which I said, “Well, then maybe you need some new guys if you want to still be here in 5 years.” @NeptuneMoon

To make matters worse, they promoted an internal guy to run marketing who had no clue what he was doing but thought he did. @NeptuneMoon

How about clients who say “the guys”? @beyondthepaid

Also looking for a supper detailed specific skill set for no budget. @runnerkik

@beyondthepaid I was flabbergasted. You’re the CEO. Why is this up to “the guys”?????? @NeptuneMoon

My most recent problem client was one who was adamant that things that worked in the past, even years ago, would continue to work.  @kytaylor88

Ones which don’t recognise that their product/service, and/or website needs work.
They don’t want to put any work into bettering things, even when it is needed and their competitors are overperforming them in all areas. @marketingsoph

@kytaylor88 Cause nothing ever changes in PPC…@NeptuneMoon

@NeptuneMoon We showed the CMO data that said for every dollar they were spending on Capterra ads, they were getting a 0.15x ROAS when closed-lost opps were taken into consideration. Across $275k. @kytaylor88

They couldn’t grasp that brand awareness efforts would support all inbound efforts, so they gutted the LinkedIn budget to put back into Capterra. Rejecting the real data because they “know that Capterra can work. @kytaylor88

Q5: How do you deal with problem clients? And how does it vary based on the nature of the
problematic client?

Be honest about the issue in a respectful way. Everyone wants this to be successful. We have a long version of this laid out in our contract. We need everyone on both sides to do what they said they would do and meet deadlines. No slacking. @duanebrown

I always try to approach problematic client behaviour as just that. And see if we can find a way around it. Or get to the root of what is really going on first. @NeptuneMoon

At this point in my life, there is a conversation and then if things don’t change a quick walk away.  Knowing your value is part of this. @runnerkik

Agreed @runnerkik I make a reasonable effort to get things on track, but if I can’t then I’m out. @NeptuneMoon

Ultimately, it becomes an opportunity cost question.

• Does investing extra time to right the ship payout in terms of relationship longevity/value?
• Or, does cutting ties free you up to perform more meaningful, fruitful work? @teabeeshell

That too if it’s “too expensive” and frankly emotionally expensive is a consideration too. @runnerkik

Empathy. I try my best to understand where the friction is coming from. However, I also do a pretty good job at “training” my clients to respect and value my time. And if it’s not a good fit, I usually am the one to bring up splitting (sometimes they reform because they don’t want to lose me as a resource) @navahf

Taking control of the problem by jumping on a call and addressing the situation before it becomes an issue. @HeatherCox

We have reached the 3-month review mark with a handful of clients where we evaluated the situation and decided to not continue working with them. We always explain why we don’t think it’s a good fit, and help them find another provider including full, detailed handovers.
Some are really surprised when we don’t want to just keep on taking their money even when we’ve spent 3 months having difficult conversations with them and it clearly not being a good fit! @marketingsoph

For us, there are a few levels to it:

1. Respectfully address the situation with the client – including providing clear, simple examples of the issue.
2. If it doesn’t improve, then there’s usually a “breakup” conversation – sometimes that is enough to correct the issue, but not always
3. Transition the client – If things haven’t improved, we’ll transition the client to another agency. I never want to leave someone high and dry (even those difficult-to-work-with clients), but at the end of the day, the first obligation is to our team. @DigitalSamIAm

PPCChat Participants

• Melissa L Mackey @beyondthepaid
• Reva Minkoff @revaminkoff
• Travis @teabeeshell
• Julie F Bacchini @NeptuneMoon
• Duane Brown @duanebrown
• Michele Jaeger @MicheleJaeger1
• Navah Hopkins @navahf
• Heather Cox @HeatherCox
• Robert Brady @robert_brady
• Sophie Logan @marketingsoph
• Austin D @Austin_Dillman
• Ashton Clarke @adclarke10
• Sarah Stemen @runnerkik
• Kyle Taylor @kytaylor88
• Sam @DigitalSamIAm

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