In the latest PPCChat session, hosted by Julie F Bacchini, industry experts dove into some of the most controversial and thought-provoking opinions in the world of PPC. From debates on billing practices to the value of different ad networks, no stone was left unturned. Check out the screencap below for a snapshot of the lively discussion that took the PPC community by storm!
Q1: What is your most controversial or unpopular PPC opinion?
A majority of Google users don’t know the difference between paid ads and organic listings. A large majority. @robert_brady
Every billing model has positives and negatives.For example, any model build on hours disincentivizes efficiency. @robert_brady
The Audience Network doesn’t suck (in fact it’s around 30% cheaper than GDN @navahhopkins
I kind of spoiled mine – but Google is not the end all be all platform – other channels are just as if not more useful @navahhopkins
In fairness to the % of spend point @Neptune Moon – it came about out of ignorance (that larger spends require more effort). I think if folks STILL lean into % of spend then there’s a confidence in skill/longevity of the client problem @navahhopkins
I used to do $1000 + percent of spend and moved away from that because it always created questions around why we were investing more (even if it was helping the client) @navahhopkins
one more opinion before I have a feeling we move to a different topic: if an agency asks you to work more than 60 hours a week on salary, that agency should be outed as a bad employer. @navahhopkins
GDN can work well for prospecting as well as remarketing. It’s the most underrated campaign type/channel available. @alimehdimukadam
My latest hot take – your offer & landing page matter more than campaign structure, ads, etc. @alimehdimukadam
Google Ads, or PPC in general, is not always the answer for businesses @NeptuneMoon
Attribution is, and has always been, mostly bullshit @NeptuneMoon
Many businesses have serious positioning problems that impact the success of their PPC way more than anything any of us can do @NeptuneMoon
Percent of spend billing is a shady practice @NeptuneMoon
I think % of spend also is used as a way to get in cheap and then get paid what you should have from the start as the spend goes up. It is not that your workload got more demanding (unless a lot more scope was added which is not what I am talking about).
That PPC management alone is a dying skillset @runnerkik
Inbound content businesses will beat business relying on paid advertising only! @runnerkik
@duane hours for time I was warned about and did anyway every new business owner goes thru this though. @runnerkik
If I want to get people fuming, just say we should stop doing free account audits and we should all charge and only do paid account audits.I don’t think it is controversial but LinkedIn would tell you otherwise. @duanebrown
I use to very tight fisted about being paid by % of ad spend but as I get older and run the agency longer… I just want to get paid. Don’t care how we slice it…. just don’t ask for me to sell you hours is my only caveat @duanebrown
The hours right of passage @Sarah Stemen …. we did have a client at $150 per hour for 76 hours in a month. BUT it was a use it or lose it, so it make sense because we would make the money even if we only use 60 hours in a month. Otherwise, hours are the worse. I hate counting hours and won’t go back to them @duanebrown
Seldom be testing @Pete_Bowen
PPC people can add more value outside the account ie don’t stay in your lane. @Pete_Bowen
The head is better than the long tail so long as the head is reaching the right people. @ferkungamaboobo
Oh wait one more: that we’re a data-driven industry. No one is doing data analysis of any meaningful level, we refuse to publish datasets, we don’t publish methodologies, At least in agency land @ferkungamaboobo
Hot Take: guarantees are not necessarily a scam. @ppcClickShark
there are account audits and sales audits peter @ppcClickShark
Yes. It misaligns your interest and clients interests if you get paid more only when they spend more @NeptuneMoon
Q2: What is a controversial or unpopular PPC opinion that you vehemently disagree with that you see out there being touted?
I HATE SKAGs @navahhopkins
That PPC equals Search. Whenever someone says PPC that is what they mean a majority of the time. But many PPC platforms. @ppcClickShark
I also struggle with people who use DKI/Customizers as a crutch instead of writing great ads @navahhopkins
I disagree with a set approach or whatever is being templatized as the “only” way to run/structure an ad account.Sure, there are best practices.I believe every manager/operator is different and as long as you get the results it doesn’t matter whether you got it through STAGs or SKAGs @alimehdimukadam
I am going to go general here and say that whenever I see a post or tweets that talk like there is only one way to do something and it is what that person does, I have a very visceral reaction.There is absolutely NOT only one way to do anything in PPC. And furthermore, success in one account with a particular strategy in NO WAY guarantees success in another! @NeptuneMoon
I don’t know about controversial ones — most people who are actually saying something controversial has something worth learning from @ferkungamaboobo
It’s the people yapping about the industry talking points you’ve heard ad nauseam since day 1 in the industry that are eyeroll-worthy @ferkungamaboobo
on philosophy, I agree with what everyone else has shared – there is no right or wrong way, there’s only higher and lower probability doe success @navahhopkins
Anyone’s manual bidding “secret sauce” the entire concept is built on a last click attribution model. @runnerkik
After all these long years at the coalface my capacity for vehement disagreement is diminished. I just feel sad sometimes when I see small businesses getting poor results because someone isn’t doing things the right way. @Pete_Bowen
Anyone follow Greg Moran from Solutions 8? He has some pretty outside the box takes on how using Google’s in-system conversions is detrimental to performance @ppcClickShark
so….I have thoughts and feelings I can’t go too far into because they’re in the upcoming Optmyzr study on bidding strategies….that said, one of my personal biases was really challenged in regards to low spending accounts (i.e. that they have to be on manual) @navahhopkins
To be clear, I do not object to people sharing thoughts that differ from my own and my experience. I love to learn new things and think about things in a different way. It is the dogmatic approach of some that makes me nuts. @NeptuneMoon
@Navah Hopkins dying to know as I hate manual and also I have two small spending b to b clients killing it on max clicks. Also loving your studies this year they are so helpful! @runnerkik
@Navah Hopkins Some of the accounts that have a set budget of $1000-2000 do very well with tCPA. Starts with manual. @alimehdimukadam
all of this is to say – I suspect that manual bidding is like jager bombs – for the right person, it’s great. For everyone else…we’ll take our classy cocktails or beer @navahhopkins
Saw you post on Linkedin @Navah Hopkins about the study. Did not get a chance to see yet. Looking forward to that @ppcClickShark
Tbh manual makes me think I suck at ppc and I’m delusional…I’m a big picture ppc’er tho @runnerkik
manual is important to have auction empathy but it’s not going to win at scale against the other bidding strategies @navahhopkins
There is no AI in any of our tools. It’s all just more and more advanced machine learning. And thus, it’s only as good as the data it’s trained on/with. And seemingly nobody is willing to disclose how the training is being done. @robert_brady
Anything on YouTube and the people selling their course…. lol.I try to stay off the internet when I am not working. @duanebrown
Q3: What popular PPC opinion do you really disagree with?
The biggest one and I’ll fight anyone on this: audience targeting works at all. @ferkungamaboobo
Video is necessary to succeed in 2024 @ppcClickShark
How do you mean @Reid Thomas? That exclusions don’t do the thing? @navahhopkins
That agencies are better than in house. I think a weaker PPCer + care and knowledge for a business can outweigh a strong ppc expert with 40+ accounts and no time to talk 1 on 1 with the client @runnerkik
Google is the best ad platform – Microsoft, Amazon, and others are really innovating @navahhopkins
The party line from Google Ads that all of their automated/machine learning/AI functions work equally well across ecommerce, lead gen and businesses of any size and budget. It just doesn’t. And that is ok. It is essentially impossible to do all of those things well in the same platform with automation. But be real about it. @NeptuneMoon
Um, basically like, any of the audiences built in Google, but even moreso from any programmatic platform. It might just be inventory but I think — and the research shows — that it’s a deeper dataset issue. @ferkungamaboobo
Popular PPC opinion of clients – once the ad starts running, conversions should automatically come.It’s a magic machine. @alimehdimukadam
@Navah Hopkins I would LOVE to learn Amazon and not in a “on client accounts way” in the way that I know Google. @runnerkik
The only thing that you really have to be aware of is that since Amazon is used to everything being on their platform, they’re not as good about things like placement exclusions, “and” statements in targeting, and other little details @navahhopkins
@Reid Thomas – I agree that audiences in the current privacy climate are a bit off – but not using them at all can really hurt performance – that said I tend to lean more towards ad network audiences vs the ones I build off of remarketing or customer lists unless I’m doing look a likes @navahhopkins
Amazon is the best platform (my opinion). Though a lot of other variables come in play like inventory management, FBA, buy box, reviews, etc.Amazon Ads alone will succeed but you may find client is out of inventory… @alimehdimukadam
All the push to use first party data – upload your customer data to an ad platform – really, really glosses over the privacy and risk considerations for the advertiser. When you do it, you are assuming all of the liability for that data being in the hands of the platform. Businesses and PPC pros take this way too lightly. @NeptuneMoon
also “target and observe” will have you exclusively target the audience @navahhopkins
True! Got me there. I often read stuff people write on applying audiences from the same people who rave about ROI based bidding @ppcClickShark
so I’m not really sure where you get “nada” from @navahhopkins
See I’ve never got anywhere with observing audiences. It’s always the same 10 or so, regardless of industry @ferkungamaboobo
The one I always find funny is that freelancers are better then agencies. Both are worse then going in-house.In the end, it is about hiring the right people. Doesn’t matter what bucket someone is in because if they can not do the job. Being in-house or freelance won’t mean a thing @duanebrown
Popular PPC opinion – CPM’s matterI find myself not agreeing with that for meta or Google. @alimehdimukadam
Popular PPC opinion these days – Google needs big budgets to be effective. I disagree with this – I mean, yes, big budgets are helpful, but campaigns can still work and get great results at small spends if you target appropriately, etc. Also calling out that not all agencies are alike – so it’s about finding the right fit and what makes the most sense for the company vs. a blanket judgemen @revaminkoff
Q4: Is there a PPC take you’ve seen recently that really got you thinking?
My poll where I asked “is ppc dying” and WHO said yes has me shook. @runnerkik
@Reid Thomas’s take on Audiences has got me thinking now. @alimehdimukadam
not a “ppc take” more a general news one: I’m really struggling with the ethics of ppc and some of the choices Google has made (not all of them). It feels like we need a detox from “bros” and “gurus” + the debatable ad platform practices – I just don’t know how we get there @navahhopkins
Have not seen others discuss. But having applied to a million jobs in my career the question inevitably comes up about experience in a specific vertical. For example:”How many years experience in pharma advertising do you have?”I think niche matter a lot less now than at any point. Successful advertising is about being able to think, navigate the platforms, and know how to recognize and apply changes to KPIs @ppcClickShark
It is not so much a take, but conversations I have. been having with experienced PPC pros who are just getting to a point of “where will the work be in 2-5 years?” in volumes way higher than any other time in my 20+ years in this industry @NeptuneMoon
I believe Google did a few errors. If you see the SEO side, with the whole HCU update & how they called a few sites to their office. And now some sites are getting their traffic back.Something like this is missing on the paid side I believe @alimehdimukadam
And we need an option to switch UI in perpetuity @alimehdimukadam
@Navah Hopkins A huge reason why I’ve gotten as militant as I have is that I realized that as a digital marketer feeding the ad ecosystem, I spend 50+ hours a week making the world worse for a living. So the question is – what do we do to change that? How do we remedy that. @ferkungamaboobo
And it’s ok – everyone’s got to eat. No shade to anyone. But I was tired of doing bad stuff for frankly not enough money to make it worth it to me @ferkungamaboobo
I was talking about this with Fred the other day – how can we solve the “scale of virtue” problem in digital marketing @navahhopkins
Woah, I was thinking one of these days on the lines that ultimately it’s all marketing (last 100 years), because everyone wants sales & growth, which goes back to capitalism & free enterprise alimehdimukadam
Ooh tell me more about that scale of virtue problem – haven’t heard of that @ferkungamaboobo
I truly believe part of the answer is acknowledging that certain practices are an instant black mark (i.e. holding accounts hostage, running up ad spend for the sake of mrr, etc.) @navahhopkins
I still can’t believe in 2024 agencies keep accounts hostage & come up with language like “proprietary” @alimehdimukadam
@Reid Thomas essentially that we as marketers seem to take it for granted that we have to do evil to make money and that scales really well – then we get out of marketing and help 100~ people to feel better about ourselves. We’re both noodling how can we solve the problem that people feel they need to leave marketing/tech to do good and that the good can only really reach a fraction of the people impacted by the money making evil @navahhopkins
I literally watch people grow followers to some crazy number then they start selling let me teach you ppc freelancing classes. Tell me without telling me ppc management isn’t working for ya – then these people churn out wrecking accounts, granted they aren’t charging much but the businesses lose so much and come to experts with ptsd @runnerkik
but I think a number of us feel the ick factor growing and are tired – but we shouldn’t have to leave a field we’re good at to do good in the world @navahhopkins
There has to be another way of growing your ‘personal brand’ without that like comment thing. Or maybe it is the only way & we are too old or rigid to adapt. I find myself at odds at this point quite often. @alimehdimukadam
The “Is PPC Dying” question keeps popping up – and I don’t think it is, but it is definitely changing. Always interesting to think about how it’s evolving. @revaminkoff
They do far more than hold an account hostage, they own the analytics and the lp and create these software systems to circumvent ads @runnerkik
So I think the answer with ick factor is to stop the ick. What is ick? For me I found the four things but it might be different for everyone. Like, it’s gross to me that I didn’t learn accessibility day 1 of working on the web. Or that it’s still hard to find diverse stock images — and tons of agencies struggle with meeting federal laws around it! @ferkungamaboobo
so late to this but thought I’d throw in my 2 cents. really appreciated the nuanced discussion about something I grapple with daily – are we doing evil? When I worked at google, their motto was “don’t be evil” and it NEVER sat well with me. But now, I think, as skilled PPC managers, are we doing better by hopefully spending ad dollars efficiently and not give google more than they deserve (they will always get more than they deserve, but at least we can mediate it a little)? But overall, yeah, I would love more ideas on how to take a stronger stance as a consultant. Right now i’m getting my masters in psych, and am planning on transitioning to becoming a therapist, but I also feel like there is a lot of work to be done to improve the digital ecosystem which would undoubtedly help more people at scale. @MicheleJaeger1
So like, and this idk, is a bit out of scope of the discussion. But my general take is that the real ethical problems in the field have nothing to do with like… spending efficiently or something. Yeah, if you’re out to scam, that’s its own thing, but I don’t think anyone’s out to pull fast ones with anything. It’s, idk, a bit more weird than that — it’s kinda like “alright what is the nature of what we’re doing? how do we handle this in a good way?” So I think about all the sites I’m on where a tracking blocker (nothing 3rd party – only the ones built into the browsers) stopped the functionality of the site. Like, what are we doing as whatever-you-want-to-call-us that the tracking is more important than the revenue? Ideas like that. I dunno. I know I’m very militant about this kind of thing, and that’s even worse given that I’m vague and unclear about a lot of it. @ferkungamaboobo
yes! such great points. sort of like what are we doing tracking all these people vs just being good marketers/relying too heavily on attribution? @MicheleJaeger1
Q5: What is your most hopeful or optimistic PPC take?
That we will still have a role to play even when the platforms go fully automated. @NeptuneMoon
That the new generation of PPCers are free from our biases and will innovate further @navahhopkins
We have a long way to go before the machines take over @duanebrown
We’ll evolve from carriages to cars. And the world needs more multi-dimensional ppc experts, not less. All CMO’s will be those who would have run paid media campaigns. @alimehdimukadam
I am LOVING the consulting model or coaching model Jyll started. I pick up the phone and answer questions and can deeply impact brands full strategy. @runnerkik
There are ways to do this that doesn’t hurt people. @ferkungamaboobo
Strategy, consulting and audits are where the real profits are @duanebrown
If I wasn’t at Optmyzr, I’d be super happy in consulting land but Optmyzr is also happy so it’s all good @navahhopkins
This is perhaps the most helpful, open & kind group of professionals I’ve seen across many industries. The PPC crowd is a good bunch. @robert_brady
I also don’t think deep knowledge can be faked which is why the consultant model works for me. Clients are thrilled to talk to someone. I didn’t realize how much they don’t get deep conversations about the business. I also still think ppc is a business mirror. It can show you what is working and reflect the data back. @runnerkik
PPCChat Participants:
- Julie F Bacchini @NeptuneMoon
- Peter Bowen @Pete_Bowen
- Navah Hopkins @navahhopkins
- Sarah Stemen @runnerkik
- Ali Mehdi Mukadam @alimehdimukadam
- Robert Brady @robert_brady
- Reid Thomas @ferkungamaboobo
- Reva Minkoff @revaminkoff
- Derek Mollins @ppcClickShark
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