PPCChat | Bidding Strategies | 21 Aug, 2018

This week’s PPCChat session was hosted by Mark Kennedy where PPC experts discussed about bidding strategies, using manual vs automated bidding, discussing each of automated bidding strategies (eCPC, Target ROAS etc.) and more.

Here is the screencap of the discussion that took place.

Q1: Before we dive into specific strategies, curious how many of you are using some form of these automations and if so, are you using them in 100% of your campaigns or are there still instance of manual bidding in your accounts?

We use almost exclusively manual bidding at Discosloth! It’s much more cost efficient. – @gilgildner

We utilize both. Especially for clients who do not have (1) a lot of history or (2) good history we do a bit of manually bidding. – @PPCKirk

mostly automated, though I do use manual for short promos with no history or momentum. My general rule is Maximize Clicks until conversions come in, then flip to conversions. – @JuliaVyse

Using both. More manual bidding for Search and I haven’t testing too much sadly – @mcgregor212

I use both. I like automation as it makes my life easier, but sometimes it’s not the best solution. I use manual when there isn’t enough conversion data coming in. I also like to regularly test manual after I’ve been using automated bids for a while – @markpgus

I started using automated bidding at the very end of my time at my last company. I just suggested away from automated bidding in smaller accounts for some audits I ran, but I’m not sure which side I’d fall on creating some new accounts – @ferkungamaboobo

Both at work. Still more manual than automated – @robert_brady

Target CPA for a lot of DSA campaigns. Manual bidding where we want to test position vs conversions and profit. Though we may throw some rules in there too. – @duanebrown

I test enhanced bids sometimes, but mostly I’m 100% manual after the first month of an accounts lifetime. Previously though I used more automatic, too many accounts to look after at the same time. Now I’m in a place where I have less clients, more flexibility and I spend a lot of time testing bidding – @amaliaefowler

We almost always start off manual till be have a good solid ground to build off for automation. – @elevatedmrktng

I use almost no automated bidding – simply because every time I’ve tested it, the results were so bad, it was clear google’s algorithm is deeply incorrect. – @stevegibsonppc

I will admit that in most cases the CPA targeting hits close to the desired CPL, but I’ve had times where I could get more of the conversions at the same. Some give and take on keywords and adgroups, vs each individual auction. – @markkennedysem

I use some form of automation in all my accounts, at this point. If Target CPA or Max Conversions isn’t working (or if the account is too small to provide sufficient data to the algorithms) then I’m using Manual CPC with Enhanced CPC enabled. – @akaEmmaLouise

any client over a certain spend threshold of mine is 100% using automation with manual oversight. SMB’s I’d say its 50%, sometimes the data is to think to use tools. – @JonKagan

I see this more in Legal (injury) PPC accounts where the lawyers want first crack at the potential case regardless of the CPA. Creates a bidding war and high CPCs, but strong counter argument is the value of these cases. – @markkennedysem

In our campaigns, we have been setting automated max bids lately. In some cases, we may have some manual bidding set up. – @marccxmedia

Q2: And as a follow-up to the first question, are you having success with your automated bidding strategies or have you turned them off in any accounts due to under-performance

There are rare occasions we have some form of automated bidding, but we turn these off in almost every account. We have a low volume, high maintenance approach. – @gilgildner

We’ve seen a mixed bag when it comes to results from automated strategies, but as Google’s algorithms get better – we’ll definitely be continuing to test. – @CallRail

Mostly automated is a huge win but when conditions change dramatically it may be best to turn off automated bidding to reset learning. – @dotcentrex

I turn them off – well, I test, regularly. I don’t love automatic bidding, tbh. – @amaliaefowler

I’ve had instances where ROAS or CPA was met, but at the sacrifice of revenue or leads. I don’t think it looks at the campaign overall as much as the individual keyword, but I could be wrong. – @markkennedysem

More often than not the automated strategies have had a positive effect. I usually keep them. – @robert_brady

I’ve found success in both instances. as usual, it depends on the goals of the campaign and how efficient the campaign is. – @JuliaVyse

Can issues arise when bidding strategies/settings are changed to frequently. Sometimes when I try new things I break stuff.  – @mcgregor212

Because my overall strategy is to max out impression share & position on high-intent search terms, it doesn’t really jive with automation. But I can definitely see times when set-and-forget bidding would work better.  – @ferkungamaboobo

Automation works really well a lot of the time. For me, the trouble comes when you deal with low conversion accounts. That’s when I tend to turn a lot of them off. Also, I’ve had bad experiences with Target Search Page Location and never use that anymore. – @markpgus

Success when we do it. Pretty picky when we do it with a goal clearly defined. We never just do auto bidding for the sack of doing it. – @duanebrown

I’ve tested in a lot of campaigns, some work and some don’t. If it’s working, I keep it. If not, I test something else until I find what works best (this often leads to Manual w/ ECPC enabled and automated rules established). Would love to use more automation though. – @akaEmmaLouise

mixed bag, often depends on macro variables – @JonKagan

We’ve been seeing better performance, but it also comes down to optimizing each account/campaign as well. – @marccxmedia

Q3: Starting with CPA Targeting. Is it performing well for you, under-performing, are you hitting your CPA goals (coming in high or low) and has it beat your historic performance?

Almost always underperforms a well-optimized manual campaign that has a few months of solid data behind it! – @gilgildner

We’ve seen a mixed bag when it comes to results from automated strategies, but as Google’s algorithms get better – we’ll definitely be continuing to test. – @CallRail

It varies. I have one account where target CPA actually increased CPA by almost 100% and another where it cut the CPA in half. I always start with maximize clicks, then transition to target CPA when I have enough conversions, and test manual at some point to settle – @amaliaefowler

I feel like whenever I use Target CPA it performs good but there’s volume issues. If accounts/campaigns don’t get a lot of conversions I don’t use Target CPA. Same strategy with FB – @mcgregor212

We hit our goal and at times see more conversions. Key is going with the target that Google does suggest. Anything different can mess up the system in the early days. – @duanebrown

I like Target CPA for most campaigns (all my clients are lead gen focused), because I typically don’t have budget-limited campaigns in search. It does well for mid/low funnel terms, and decently for TOFU. Again, only concern is when delivery falls bc goal is too low. – @akaEmmaLouise

CPA is a finicky one, eventually I hit my target CPA, but often my volume (courtesy of the tool), goes down the crapper. Usually have to make the parameters on it, as “loose” – @JonKagan

Target CPA/ROAS is nice sometimes, but like others have said volume tends to be an issue. If you have aggressive CPA goals this isn’t the way to go – @markpgus

We don’t focus much on CPA Targeting, but we do monitor CPA week over week for overall performance. If we see CPA increasing, we work to improve through targeting (geo, etc.) and pausing keywords/match types and ads. – @marccxmedia

Q4: How about Maximize Conversions? Are the CPA’s to high or are they still close to your target CPA (if you have one). And how do you handle when there is a budget-cap vs no cap?

In some cases this works, but since we prefer to work on long term accounts with a lot of data, it still usually isn’t the best pick for us. Google reps push this a lot, but that’s cause it’s their job. – @gilgildner

When I have a large budget I can work with Maximize Conversions, especially during peak seasons, but still have to watch that CPA like a hawk, and be ready to flip the switch if too high. But it gets more that CPA targeting. – @markkennedysem

Maximise conversions does work really well for one of our largest clients however, if conversion rates dip for whatever reason it can mean a large cost with little return. – @HomeOfJones

Opposite! I love Maximize Conversions – though you need to set up values on your conversions. It’s so important! don’t set MaxCon if you have a newsletter signup as a goal. or if you do, give it a 1 and your lead form a 100. – @JuliaVyse

Have ONLY seen Max Conversions perform well where campaign is limited by budget! Do not disregard the 90% IS (max) threshold that Google recommends; better if IS is even lower. Also, reliable conv data/tracking. When that’s all in place, CPAs as low as 1/2 of ECPC. – @akaEmmaLouise

he billion dollar question. We stay away from max conversions, and focus on a ROI/CPA rule, but give it more leeway vs our hard numbers to nudge it upward – @JonKagan

I love me some Maximize Conversions but it is emotionally draining sometimes. Month over month things look good but there can be serious volatility week to week  – @markpgus

I don’t think we should be generalizing individual advertiser experiences with certain bidding strats – maybe in once instance, a strategy yielded a less than favorable result, but that doesn’t mean with a diff product, geo, improved LTV, it would stay the same. – @zackbedingfield

For a few recent campaigns, we’ve been running with Max Conversions to get some qualified conversions, but results have been mixed. (Again, depends on the client/account/campaign.) – @marccxmedia

Q5: Let’s move over to ROAS (return on adspend). If you are using this, how is the performance. Are you seeing that the return is close to your target and how much has it increased (or decreased) revenue. Any pros or cons?

We have seen TROAS struggle to keep up with sweeping market changes (I.e., for a big labor day or Black Friday sale). It just didn’t expect & couldn’t react to significantly increased Comp bids/traffic. – @PPCKirk

if you have hard profit margins, it is the way to go, but don’t count on the volume. Often, I let it run for 3-6 weeks to identify the best performers, then take a single product/keyword and pull the rule off that to manage it manually to grow the bottom line. – @JonKagan

nope. I have no ecom clients at this point, and most of my clients have heard of it but are very skeptical of “not having a budget” but rather just making enough back on everything spent. – @JuliaVyse

I saw larger success with ROAS in early phases of testing, and it hit the target ROAS, but I saw a decrease in Revene as it went on. So I lowered ROAS target, same result. This may work better in high-volume, large budget campaigns for others, though. – @markkennedysem

This ^ if I run it I’m doing it to identify best performers – @amaliaefowler

We have seen TROAS struggle to keep up with sweeping market changes (I.e., for a big labor day or Black Friday sale). It just didn’t expect & couldn’t react to significantly increased Comp bids/traffic. Also, this was on a client who always runs deals of some sort so it’s not like there was an issue with customer intent. f automated bidding is going to work for ecommerce, it’s got to be able to anticipate & react well to major changes (holidays, sales, etc). We can’t reset bids manually each time & then revert. – @PPCKirk

Yes it can work…. Volume can suck. Same as Target CPA. These target strategies are very safe but IMO if you have time, take the data and go manual…. Or Maximize Conversions if limited by budget. – @markpgus

Q6: Enhanced CPC is the default these days and do you typically leave it that way or turn it off for manual or other strategies? Do you see it helping or hurting the performance of your campaigns?

I see ECPC on a *lot* in campaigns ZATO takes over that have too few visits and conversions. Can’t use ECPC if you don’t have the data, it’s not just a magic button click for small accounts! – @PPCKirk

Tried ECPC on an account and costs skyrocketed with no improvement on Revenue or Orders…Ended that experiment after about 3 weeks. – @ronzmahoney

still turn it off more often than not (in the SMB accounts) as they are usually limited by budget and I prefer to adjust the CPCs accordingly, but in some new accounts I do test it early on. – @markkennedysem

I love ECPC. Nearly all my Manual CPC campaigns have ECPC enabled (I prefer that to a pure ECPC strategy), except for a select few where CPC is a KPI or conv tracking isn’t reliable. 50% of traffic uses set bid, 50% gets adjusted. Win-Win IMO and it’s performed well. – @akaEmmaLouise

I turn it off by default every time. Stuck in my ways and need to do an honest test. Curious on other ppls commetns here? – @mcgregor212

Because I almost exclusively work with low volume or restricted accounts, I tend to leave eCPC off – like @PPCKirk just mentioned, it isn’t a magic fix-all – it needs data too – @amaliaefowler

I 100% turn it off every time. Lacks transparency. And for automation, I typically use a 3rd party platform that doesn’t get along with EC. – @JonKagan

Sometimes I leave it, sometimes I turn it off. When I’ve changed from one to the other (existing campaigns), I’ve never seen meaningful differences – @stevegibsonppc

eCPC is my jam for “manual” CPC accounts. Little boosts for good search terms is much more easily done at scale like that. – @ferkungamaboobo

I  use ECPC when I go manual. I just would rather see what it brings back, analyze the data and reevaluate if it isn’t good enough – @markpgus

If client has a healthy budget then I leave it on 98%of the time. Just my auto ecom client is not seeing the results I would want. Otherwise, our other SaaS and ecom clients are seeing success with it. – @duanebrown

Q7: I don’t use it Maximize Clicks as much, but is anyone have a successful situation where this works or are there any results where it hurt your campaigns when testing?

Actually yes, via a 3rd party platform. We were doing it to solely build a remarketing list for GDN/YouTube (Yes I do feel shame for being sneaky – @JonKagan

I’ve had a lot of success with maximize clicks, mostly for lead gen. It’s great for starting new campaigns that need a bump, and for getting a good sense of available volume. – @JuliaVyse

All my campaigns start on maximize clicks, but after the first 30 days I don’t ever use it anymore UNLESS I’ve switched it off and performance tanked (which has happened maybe twice/137 accounts) – @amaliaefowler

I use this all the time for campaigns that are mainly focused on impressions. Set default bid & let Maximize clicks do it thing – @mcgregor212

I’ve seen it work (can’t remember for who), but it’s not something I’d be likely to use simply because maximising clicks is never my goal. – @stevegibsonppc

My caveat for maximize clicks is with my enterprise B2B clients who are account based focused – volume isn’t helpful in those cases – @amaliaefowler

I use it a lot when I restructure an account just to get it in the auction and competing. After that I’ll switch to a more conversion oriented strategy. Sounds like a lot of other #ppcchaters do the same – @markpgus

Most of our campaigns are targeting conversions, rather than awareness/clicks, so our main concern is qualified clicks that convert. – @marccxmedia

Q8: Target Search Page Location – This one can be aggressive, but I have a small percentage of campaigns where it’s needed. Anyone else using this strategy and having success (or failure).

never used. – @JuliaVyse

I use to it on brand keywords, we later determined that you can put a price on a client/brands ego. So only half my brands use it now. – @JonKagan

I used it a long time ago and honestly can’t remember why or if it helped – @amaliaefowler

For a while I used it on all SMB brand terms where there was little competition….. It actually negatively impacted branded impression share soooo I have never done that again  – @markpgus

Q9: The last automated bidding strategy to discuss in Target Outranking Share. This is unfamiliar territory for me, but would love to hear if/how others are using it.

I’m testing it right now! It’s been about 5 days. I’m doing it in an account in one campaign where competition has increased dramatically in the last year (with a specific competitor) to see what happens. – @amaliaefowler

Interesting more of a conquesting play or trying to be out your nemesis? – @mcgregor212

defer to my previous answer, you need a good business case to do this, otherwise your ego will cost you quite a bit. – @JonKagan

I’ve used it on non-branded terms against major competitors. This was more from the client hating them than looking for performance though 🙂 they were pleased – @markpgus

PPCChat Participants:

• Mark Kennedy – @markkennedysem
• Kirk Williams – @PPCKirk
• Gil Gildner – @gilgildner
• Jon Kagan – @JonKagan
• Julia Vyse – @JuliaVyse
• Mark Gustafson –  @markpgus
• Amalia – @amaliaefowler
• Steve Gibson – @stevegibsonppc
• Duane Brown – @duanebrown
• Garrett McGregor– @mcgregor212
• Emma Franks – @akaEmmaLouise
• Elevated Marketing – @elevatedmrktng
• Doug R Thomas – @ferkungamaboobo
• CallRail – @CallRail
• Robert Brady – @robert_brady
• Emma Franks – @akaEmmaLouise
• Marccx Media – @marccxmedia
• Mike Freedman – @dotcentrex

Related Links:

• PPCChat | Beginners Guide to PPC | July 24, 2018
• When Should You Use AdWords Automated Bidding?
• Using Target CPA Smart Bidding Strategy To Support Lead Generation