An interesting talk where experts attended to some of the questions around Conversion Rate Optimization. Moderated by Kieran Flanagan (VP Marketing, HubSpot) the panelists of this Q&A session were Pamela Vaughan (Principal Marketing Manager of Optimization, HubSpot), Larry Kim (Founder & CTO , Wordstream), Oli Gardner (Co-founder, Unbounce), Peep Laja (Founder, ConversionXL) and Rand Fishkin (Founder, Moz).
Here are some of the key takeaways from this discussion:
- A structured CRO process is to primarily identify where the problem lies and finding a relevant solution for it
- Identifying the source of your converting traffic is important and thus is an important metric for CRO
- Make your landing page content persuasive to drive conversions
- Remarketing is a massive CRO hack
- Having pop-ups that are relevant and occur at the right place and right time can help drive results
- Conversion and placement of CTA is co-related along with using a relevant term for your CTA
- When creating experiments, think beyond conversion to retention and life time value of customer
For more, watch video of this discussion here.
Here’s the transcript of the session:
Kieran: Hey everyone. So, I think we’re live. Welcome today to our Google Live Hangout all around Conversion Rate Optimization. So we have something very special today for everyone. We have a truly global list of world experts on Conversion Rate Optimization based all around the world literally. A couple of housekeeping notes, so we’re going to record this Hangout, so you’ll have it available to you. There’s a hashtag you guys can follow, it’s #CROhangouts; so you can follow along, ask questions, interact with people. And the agenda we’re going to go through today, which I think is very cool, is built by everyone who’s actually on this hangout, so people uploaded their questions and we’re going to answer the top 20 questions over the next 60 minutes.
So I’m going to be really strict with the [inaudible 0:00:56] experts. I’m sure they would want to talk for an eternity on each of these questions, but I’m going to try to cut them up so we get through all the questions that you guys wanted us to cover and thought was important. So what I’m going to do is go around from my left to right from the list of experts. I’m going to give you a quick introduction, and then I’m going to ask them to tell you where they are today so you can get a feel of how truly global this hangout is.
So the first person is Pamela Vaughan, is from HubSpot. She works in our CRO team. Pam has worked on an incredible amount of conversion tactics and built the conversion playbook for our blog and now she is doing the same for our website. Some of the things she’s done for her blog have actually increased our leads by 240%. Most of the times when I go and present at conferences I just steal all of Pam’s experiments because they make me look good. So, Pam, do you want to give a quick introduction on where you’re based today?
Pam: Yeah, I’m at neighbouring Massachusetts in the new [inaudible 0:01:57]
Kieran: Next we have Larry Kim. Larry’s the CTO of Wordstream, also one of the people I see publishing lots and lots of content – an incredible amount of content, a list that’s always full of lots of learnings. So he is the best known person for paid acquisition, an expert in CRO, a phenomenal marketer. And also someone who has got up really early in the morning to be good enough to join us today. So, Larry, do you want to give a quick introduction so that people know where you’re from?
Larry: Sure, I live in Cambridge right near the HubSpot office, but I’m actually dialling in from Sydney, Australia this morning and that’s why it’s so dark here.
Kieran: Awesome.
Larry: 3 AM.
Kieran: 3 AM, so that is commitment to this Hangout. Thank you for doing that, Larry. Oli Gardner, co-founder of Unbounce. I’m sure everyone’s familiar with Oli, probably seen more landing pages in his time than anyone else. Renowned speaker, speaking all over the globe, been kind enough to speak in Dublin where I’m actually based, and has a blog on Unbounce full of amazing things around Conversion tactics. Oli does this really cool video show, where he tears …the pages as well. Oli, do you want to give a quick introduction, let people know where you’re from?
Oli: Yes, I’m in here from Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada.
Kieran: Awesome.
Oli: And it’s not that early, it’s 9 AM, that’s early for me.
Kieran: Yeah, not too late, not like Kim or Larry. Peep Laja [chuckles]. I think I just got the second name wrong. Peep runs Conversion, co-founder of ConversionXL, entrepreneur, over ten years of industry experience. The best thing I can say is that Peep is… anytime anyone wants to ask me a question on conversion or CRO, I just say, “Go, read his blog.” I’ve stolen multiple things from his blog. It is definitely one of the best resources on the planet for everything Conversion. Peep, do you want to give us a quick introduction, let us know where you’re based today?
Peep: Yeah, I’m in Austin, Texas, and also United States of America.
Kieran: Yep, another United States of America. And then, last but no means least, is Rand Fishkin. I don’t think he needs too much of an introduction – founder, former CEO of Moz, author of tons and tons of books, co-author of lots of books, co-founder Inbound.org, industry speaker across the globe… Rand, where are you based today, because you usually travel quite a lot?
Rand: I’m actually in Seattle, Washington, my hometown, which is kind of shocking. It is in the United States, but my hope is – and may be Oli could work on this – if Trump happens to win the election, may be Canada can invade.
Pam: [Laughter]
Oli: Yeah, we can absorb you, we’ll just do that.
Rand: That’ll be really appreciated.
Kieran: Cool. So there are our speakers. Yeah, you have to give a lot of money to go and see these people speak, so we’re getting that tool for free. They’ve all been kind enough to dedicate some time, so we really appreciate that. Want to say thanks for their time. Let’s get right into the questions. So, the very first question, I think it’s a really great question to start off with… So, this is for you, Peep, we’re going to go to you in this:
How do I create a CRO process? How do I get started with that?
Peep: Mm-hm. Well, first thing to understand is, what do we need a process for. And the goal of what we’re doing here is to either make or test effective changes in our website. So, a good structured process, CRO process, should help you answer that question, the question of what should we test next, what should we change next in our website. So a structured process will tell you what the problems are, where they are on your website, why are these problems even problems, and it will help you identify the problems, turn them into test hypotheses, which means solutions to these problems with an A/B test should be a solution to a problem.
So, a CRO process should focus primarily on identifying what the problems are. So you want to look at the analytics to figure out where the traffic is dropping out, you want to analyze a qualitative feed to understand what’s keeping people from signing up, why they are leaving your website, why aren’t they buying more stuff. You want to use all the tools available to you to figure out what the problems are. So your structured process should be around identifying problems, turning them into test hypotheses, and then running tests and I think within this three minute time limit, can’t give you a better overview.
Oli: People should check out your ResearchXL framework.
Peep: Yes, they should. Thank you, Oli.
Kieran: So to get back to us again, what was that…?
Peep: ResearchXL.
Kieran: Can you give us a little bit of a insight to what that is? Is that a way to…?
Peep: It’s a framework that I’ve developed that teaches you how to do it. So, if you go to ConversionXL.com, in the top menu, there are free guides, free CRO courses, a full course on how to build the process.
Kieran: Awesome. Anyone else want to jump in there? We have some…we have a little bit of time on how you would create that process, prioritize. I think Rand, you have some input there?
Rand: One thing that’s worked for us pretty well is to identify the area that we’re trying to improve and then talk to two groups of customers in particular. One are people who are right customers, but did not end up signing up; so, meaning they matched all the criteria of people we think should have loved the product and wanted to sign up for it or buy it or sign up for the e-mail or whatever, do the conversion event. And then also talk to people who did sign up for it, and ask them the same sets of questions – things like, “Why were you interested, what initially brought you there?” Or “What made you decide to investigate it? What made you decide to convert or not convert?”
And then you can look at those objections and turn that into the process of things that you test on the landing page, right? Answering those objections, overcoming them, that seems to be a really powerful process that, you know, that I still learn from experts like Oli and Pam and Peep over the years and has worked well for us.
Kieran: Really quickly, how do you ask those questions? Is it through, like, an e-mail survey or a website survey, or…?
Rand: We’ve done e-mail surveys, we’ve done in-person, so at lot of conferences and events, like, talk to folks about this, or we’ll bring them into the Moz box and ask them in person. And phone calls work well too.
Kieran: Cool.
Peep: But e-mail is the way that is the scalable approach. You can, you know, survey hundreds and hundreds of people fast. So interviews, not very scalable, but you know of course, you get the richer information if you do, you know, in-person interviews.
Rand: Do you find..? Peep, would you, or other folks, do you find that when you…? I find that when we get, like, five or ten answers, those tend to be very, very similar – the same objections come up if we ask ten people, or a hundred people or a thousand people…get more and more.
Peep: Mm. So, you can identify the top issues with a smaller sample size, but if you interview only ten people, what you don’t get is, you don’t understand the severity or let’s say the frequency of the issue. So if people worried about, let’s say, price, security and I mean, whatever a third reason, so like, what is the scale of difference? So if you survey, find 100 people, you understand that, “Oh my God, pricing is a five times bigger issue than fear about something,” you know.
Rand: Right, got it, got it.
Kieran: So, I guess the next question is a really great follow-on, and this will go to you Pam, and this is:
What are some of the top CRO metrics a person should really care about when they’re trying to create that first process?
What are, like, the metrics they should grab there towards?
Pam: So, I actually think it depends on, you know, on the goal, on the problem you’re trying to solve. What you’re trying, the problem you’re trying to solve will have different metrics depending on what it is. So, I mean, the goal to metrics that people, you know, like when they talk about Conversion Rate Optimization is, you know, conversions, conversion rate which you know also depends on traffic. But, you know, if your goal’s, for example, is to improve the number of marketing qualified leads that you’re generating from your blog, you can’t just look at raw conversions, right? You have to look at, you know, the qualified conversions that come from the blog.
So things will change depending on, you know, what trials and experiments you’re running. You know, if you’re running an e-mail experiment, you’re going to be looking at, you know, click-through rate of your e-mails sent and you know, referral traffic from your emails and things like that. So really, I think the main thing is to focus on the goal you’re trying to solve and the hypotheses that you’ve formed for that experiment, and then, what makes them to actually measure to a value; whether your hypothesis is [to purchase].
And another thing I wanted to point out was the big role that traffic plays into all this. I think traffic is a huge metric, and it’s particularly traffic sources, Conversion Rate Optimization, you know, it’s really important to pay attention to the traffic, that if you try to optimize a specific page, to understand how people are getting to that page. People behave differently depending on the source of traffic, and you’ll notice changes in conversion rates based on that.
So, you know, things that we notice is that, you know, [paid] traffic typically converts at a lower rate than something like organic traffic because visitors to organic traffic are much more qualified typically; or they were searching for something that you ranked for, and they ended up on your page. They might be a little bit more qualified than people that you might acquire through [paid] traffic. So I think it’s really important to understand the sources of traffic that you’re dealing with in any given project, and understand how best to, you know, cater to those sources of traffic.
Peep: Pretty cool.
Kieran: So we’ll get further into that process, so if someone’s created the process, they understand the metrics, and the first thing they want to do is, like, redesign one of their landing pages, redesign one of their site pages to try to improve conversion.
How do you think they should go about approaching the design of that page to improve conversion?
Oli, I’m going to hand it over to you, a man who’s seen more of ‘landing pages’, ‘site pages’ test than anyone else.
Oli: Well, the first thing you shouldn’t do is like, jump the gun and jump straight into designing your page; like, you have to have a process for this too. The first thing should be copy; I remember copying forms design, not the other way around, which speaks to the common question, you know, “Who has heard the ugly landing pages convert better than beautiful ones,” right? This is… people say it all the time, but it’s not true. The reason why ugly pages do convert is because that person didn’t have design skills, and didn’t worry about it, and they focused all of their time on copywriting, which is why it’s persuasive, which is why it’s impactful.
Could be better with some extra design wrapped around it; most likely because it would just be in better page. Conversely you know, if you’re a high priced brand – Prada or whatever, you have to look exceptional, because that’s part of your visual identity, so they can’t get away with it but a lot of businesses can.
So focusing on copywriting is the start of the process. Once you have that and then your information hierarchy, you tell your story in the right order, then you can wrap a design around it.
So, getting into design now, you have to realize that traditionally no one has been taught how to design for Conversion; nobody, right? Graphic and web designers have been taught typography, grid systems, colour theory, and some aspects of it, but really, it’s been designing for UX or designing for winning awards, or whatever it is, but not for Conversion, which is why recently I wrote an Ebook called “Attention-Driven Design” which teaches you how to use design to focus attention on what you want people to be doing and give you a business advantage through design.
An interesting story, like when you asked what it was like speaking in Dublin. When I got there, I was checking into the hotel. I got, given my key card for room 324. I went to the elevator; there was a lady there ahead of me. We were chatting; I let her into the elevator first; she puts her key card in the third floor; I’m also in the third floor, so I don’t have to do anything. Now, when she exits, I exit behind her. I’m following her down the corridor, which was really creepy and awkward [chuckles] and it’s not until I get two doors down that I see that the numbers are going in the wrong direction. I’m not going to my hotel room… here’s the actual… this is the sign that made me go the wrong way.
And it’s not till she enters the room that I go, “Oh!” and I turn and run away. Because that was the second door and I ‘m looking like a pervert. And so I ran an experiment to see how many people did this and 33% went the wrong ways. So I changed it using design principles – contrast, grouping, the numbers next to the arrows, a bit of separation and after three experiments doing five-second tests, I managed to get a 100% of people going the right way. So if you can identify a design problem and you understand the principles, you can solve the problem through design. It’s a fascinating way to be able to, you know, look at things. And actually, if you want the Ebook, here’s the link to that: BITLY.COM/ADD-EBOOK.
Rand:So now we can add to your title “Oli Gadner, Hotel Sign Designer.” [Laughter]
Oli: Exactly.
Rand: Your prestige is rising as we speak.
Oli: Yes it is. I’m tired of solving the world’s problems. I love seeing these real world problems, that is showing, you know, through something like a five second test, “This is a problem, and I’m fixing it.” But going back to the copy part, clarity is the most important part of conversion, as you….copy only can convert, so also here this is an equation which identifies how good the clarity is on your page. It’s broken down into seven sub-equations that then let you know where you have a problem, but as immediacy, can’t get ever right away is readability. There are seven of them and it’s a…on Twitter, I’ll share that with you; it’s a great way of figuring out if you have a clarity problem.
Rand: Is there a URL for that?
Oli: Not for buying, it’s brand new, so I’ve only like talked about it once.
Rand: So we’ve got to go, get the recording, take a screen shot, and then post it…?
Oli: [Laughter] Or tweet out to me and I’ll share something.
Rand: I’m on it.
Kieran: One thing you said there, Oli, about, I would be interested in what everyone thinks, it’s going to be…..is that it seems that you start every may be, every test, it seems like you always start with copy and then layer in design. You think that is always the case, that you would always look at copy first and then design? And I guess as a follow-up on that is what people think is the best path – like copy versus copy test , and then, design versus designing. You need change one of those things at a time? Or…?
Oli: Well, ideally you start with copy, right? That’s the best process, because then you understand what treatment you need to present that copy. Otherwise if you start with a template, you’re like, you’re just filling in holes, right? This square peg around holes sometimes. “Oh, it has three bullets, I have to write three bullets.” That’s not appropriate; maybe you need 12, maybe you just need one. And when it comes to testing, well, that should be informed by your research. It shouldn’t be, “Well, let’s think about a copy test today,” or, “Let’s think about design test.” You need to… If you identify there was a design problem, use design to fix it. If you identify there is readability or a clarity problem, use copy to address that.
Kieran: Okay. Okay, now we’ll move on to the next question we’ve got here. One of the questions people really want to get answered was,
“What are the top three CRO myths that are like, right now?”
So what are people really getting wrong around CRO that they believe is kind of [facts] so we’re going to go all the way to Australia, so Larry, pick up this one.
Larry: Sure, thanks. How much time do we have here? I’m just kidding [chuckles]. I think if it was just the top three, kind of, big mess on CRO or big mistake, places where people get tripped up, I think one of them would definitely have to be this idea that smaller changes , you know, they generally lead to smaller changes, and they often actually don’t persist forever. A lot of the times, you know, the reason why something works so great is because it’s new, and then later it doesn’t work so well because it’s no longer new.
Another thing that people often get wrong, or get mixed up over is this idea of diminishing returns and the theoretical maximum conversion rate, you know, definitely it’s possible to go from, like, 1 to 3% conversion rates, you know, a little bit harder to go from 3% to 5%, you know, much harder to go to, you know, 5% to 8%. Instead of saying…. you can’t go to a 100% and drop beyond usually and so, you know, just when thinking about your strategies, the pics illogical, may be overestimate, you know, how high we can get this thing, you know, because the kind of low hanging fruit is fixed…
And then another kind of area where I think people can get tripped up is, you know, I suppose an increase in quantity doesn’t necessarily mean an increase in quality. So just be mindful that you’re not just making changes to your marketing stuff to get more unqualified people. You always have to be checking against the marketing qualified leads, if you can reach them because now there is cost associated with following up on leads; you don’t want to just inundate people with the scrap leads. Anything you have, anyone?
Peep: I would like to add a few here. I think the biggest myth in CRO is that people think the CRO is a list of tactics, a list of… ‘There’s one great CRO hack around the corner that will change everything.’
I mean, if you think of CRO as just a list of tactics or, “I’ll just find that blog post with one hundred tactics, and then, you know, my conversions will grow,” whatever; that’s BS. You know you always make your start with a process to identify what your actual problems are, because if you copy your competitors, you’re copying their solutions to their problems, or actually they probably copied somebody else.
And copying competitors, copying market leaders – also BS – don’t do that. And the myth that, “Oh, CRO is about figuring out what works; so we’ll just brainstorm great ideas and then let’s test them” – that is the stupidest way to go about it. I mean, an A/B test or any change you make in your website is about addressing a known identified problem. So focus on identifying what those problems are, don’t rely on the next great CRO hack.
Kieran: Cool. Anyone else want to jump under the net? Shall I move on? Nope? Okay, I’ve got them covered. So, this, I think is, like, one of the most important parts of a good CRO process and there’s lot of different frameworks, but I want to kind of go over to you, Rand, see what’s your thoughts on this is:
How do you score and prioritize experiments within Moz or how have you seen this done really well?
Rand: Yeah. So, when we run experiments, we are generally seeking the same thing, right? So we are a SaaS product with a software subscription, so we’re almost always trying to increase the number of people signing up for a ‘Free Trial’ or signing up for a ‘Free Mass Account’, a community account. And so, for us, scoring those is very, very simple, right? We can essentially say that, given that, presented with a number of visitors that landed on the page or that came into the funnel at all, broken down by source, as Pam noted, that we can then, you know, look at the percent of folks who signed up.
And the only thing that’s critical for us in that metrics, in that scoring in addition to just the raw numbers is the performance of those folks once they get into the product. So, in a SaaS product, right, it’s not like eCommerce where you’re selling something one time or hoping to sell, you know, maybe have some recurring purchases in the future, you’re looking for that recurring revenue. So for us one customer who stays with us for two or three years is worth far more than ten customers who stay with us for a month or two months each.
Like, churn rate is kind of a killer, you don’t want to get people into your funnel who’re not right through your product, and so we look at the performance of the conversion rate, but we also use a methodology to look at the first three or four months of performance of the customers who signed up just to qualify whether they have a churn curve that’s, you know, similar to, better than or worse than our existing customer sets. And I think this is important for anyone who is considering a sign-up process.
For example, one of my pet peeves, one of the things I hate most in the web world right now is the pop-ups that ask for your email address and are like, “Do you want to learn more about SEO?”, and then there’s a big button that says “Yes” and a small button that says “No, I’m done and I want to stay done forever,” right?
Oli: Click up, back up.
Rand: Yeah, I hate that, it just drives me bananas, right? And I think that one of the things that I would say is a very important to test is not just, “Did you get more e-mail sign ups,” because I’m sure you do get more e-mail sign ups from that ‘Opt In’ button, but how many of those people are long-term subscribers, how many of them are engaged subscribers? What percent of them get unsubscribed? What percent potentially hit ‘Report Spam’, and affect your e-mail deliverability and e-mail repetition sender score? I think those things are critical to consider, so
when you’re qualifying a test, remember to think beyond the point of conversion to recidivism and retention and lifetime value.
Oli: What is that word you just used?
Rand: Retention, recidivism and lifetime value.
Oli: What does that mean?
Rand: Recidivism meaning you come back and do the thing again, right? So, like in eCommerce, someone buys one pair of shoes from Zappos, do they ever buy again from Zappos?
Oli: Right, so I learnt a word today and Kieran almost learnt a word which was Peep’s last name.
Kieran: I almost learnt a word.
Oli: [Laughter]
Rand: I also learnt Peep’s last name [Laughter].
Kieran: Which is only four letters, so I think I could…
Oli: [Laughter]
Peep: Laja, Laja.
Pam: I’d love to chime in on the priorities… Yeah, so on our team we used the PIE framework. And so
PIE stands for Potential, Importance, Ease.
So essentially you know you’ll have, you know, people come to us all the time with ideas for optimization projects; we come up with ideas ourselves-based on you know digging through analytics and determining what our problem are based on what our, you know, our company goals are, and then we take these projects and then we give them this PIE score.
So Potential is essentially, you know, how much potential improvement could, you know, the results of this project or this experiment be. The Importance, like, how important is this to our business, how important will the improvement that we make be to our business.
And then Ease is like, how complicated is it to actually execute this project. Are there, kind of, stake holder or political barriers we might come in contact with? Are there technical implementation and roadblocks that we might have to overcome? And then each of these categories get the score from 1 to 10, you know, 10 meaning like it has the most potential, it’s really important and it’s really easy to execute.
And then we added these scores out to get an overall high score. Then we use that to score, you know, for all the projects that we’re evaluating and we prioritize these final scores.
Rand: Pam, do you have a resource or a link where we could see that, you know, listed out?
Pam: Trying to think of… Kieran, do you remember where this PIE framework is actually from?
Kieran: Yeah. So the PIE framework actually comes from a really great conversion company based in States. I know them really well, and I have…totally…
Peep: It’s in Canada, it’s WiderFunnel.
Pam: Yeah, WiderFunnel.
Oli: Thank you. What…?
Kieran: It’s taken from WiderFunnel. They have a great resource section, great stuff in their blog about it as well.
Peep: There are lots and lots of prioritization frameworks. There is the [Ice] model, [inaudible 0:28:16]… Some are like from the 80’s and then there are binary models like… if you want to create a cultural optimization within your company, and if you want to score let’s say A/B testing ideas, you want to add criterias in like “Does this idea come from user feedback? ‘Yes’ or ‘No’?” “Does this idea come from….?” I don’t know, like, “Does it have support from analytics?” “Did you look at this thing?” “Is it above the fold, the change?” “Did you add or remove anything?”
So, all these binary criterias, so next time when people come to the table with an A/B testing idea that they just brainstormed in their bathroom, it’s, “Oh, no user feedback, no analytics data, no blah, blah, blah, blah, blah?” Its like, “Okay, next time actually I’ll go out and get some data.” So with the prioritization framework, you can influence the way people think.
Kieran: Yeah, I think the thing with the PIE framework is, you can’t get a PIE score unless you’ve done all of those things, you wouldn’t know…in fact you wouldn’t know…
Peep: And also, I mean, estimating potential is, like, “I think this is a 7,” you know, and so on.
Kieran: So let’s get to, help me go into…if we haven’t already, Rand mentioned something that is a hot topic within marketing, and people have passionate feelings about those pop-ups. So Oli, let’s get started with you and then people can come at you, is,
“What are your thoughts on pop-ups?”
Oli: [Laughter] They suck! They suck, and they’re great. In truth, all they are is an evolution of the mechanics of how we request an action of people online. Does that make them good? No, or not always. Like if they offer something you really want, then they’re amazing, if it is at the right place in the right time. We have some amazing success with specifically like typically, they’ll convert within 1% to 4%. But we had Digital Agency Day.
It was an event, kind of like where you show up and we have recordings for it. So it is an event not everybody can attend, so on the exit there is like, “Hey, put in your e-mail, I’m going to give you all the recordings.” That converted at 32%, which is unheard of, because it was super-relevant and helpful. But the truth is they are part of our future, that future being conversion automation… Well, what does that mean? It means taking all of the conversion opportunities that exist on every page in your website and landing pages, and having them evolve to create experiences that are delivered in a responsible manner, responsible being the important word.
So, it’s capitalizing on those conversion opportunities but perhaps more important, it’s discovering the parts of your pages that you’re marketing that need to be protected. ‘Where do you need to put this walled garden’, like if you can find the data on these things then it’ll be like, “Well, this page can be really successful in requesting that, but this one, don’t ever put anything there,” because that breaks part of the conversion chain and you have to be really careful about certain pages. Any interruption ruins that experience; so people even don’t come back.
So it’s not just about capitalizing everywhere. It’s about figuring out where you have to put some kind of barriers to stop that happening. You know, you develop a conversion opportunity map and then, kind of, start from there because every website and landing page has conversion opportunities and every conversion opportunity needs a ‘Call-to-Action’. Sometimes that’s where, you have to do nothing or not. And it’s a responsible use of technology, psychology, copy writing, interaction designing – that was interesting.
I was on my phone the other day, playing a game, ‘Genies and Gems’ – super adult – and I got in, and here’s my progress, right? I’m on, like, I’m on level 50. And then a pop-up comes up, and it says “Connect to Facebook and save your progress.” That’s a blatant lie, because it doesn’t matter if I do it or not, your progress is always saved. I mean, I didn’t do 50 levels in one day, this is over the course of a week. So this is lying to me, to try and get me to share this on social – that’s an irresponsible use of, you know, interaction copywriting psychology, you know. Above all, with these things, you have to be delightful, and there’s always a way to make something delightful if you demonstrate empathy for your visitors.
Rand: Yeah, I… There was a game… I can’t remember what the game was, but it was like a Tower Defence game, and you got a little power up if you did the share, right? So it gave you like, a free something if you did the share. So there’s no lie, and it was ‘Opt-in’ only, and you had your choice, right? I didn’t connect it to my primary Twitter account, and I created a new one, and then tweeted it out … [Laughter].
Oli: [Laughter] Yes, I did __.
Rand: But you know, it was less of an adult pattern, and I think, you know, you’ve got to be careful about abusing trust.
Peep: Most people don’t take action on their first visit, right? Like, to subscribe or whatever, so if you’re working hard to spend money, or may be at the, you have been working with SEO or whatever, to drive traffic to your website. And they come, they look at the stuff and they leave. And there’s like, “Oh my God, I’m out of all that PPC budget.” But if you have the ad pop-ups, you can capture some of the traffic, remarket to them, get them to come back. Because the difference between static ‘Opt-In’s’, so “Put your email here,” always visible, versus pop-up – it’s an amazing difference, like seven, eight, nine, ten times difference.
So it’s hard to… it’s easy to bash pop-ups, it’s always, it’s in, like such a, you know, guy lying down on the floor, let’s kick the ass-hole, you know! It’s like… Sorry [Laugher]. I mean, it’s so easy to bash it, but it is a fact [inaudible 0:33:56]. And if you’re not, you know, as you said, as I always said, if you’re not unethical about it, you know…
Rand: Yeah, I think my point is broader. It’s just that if you’re going to engage in pop-ups or especially more aggressive ones, right, with a negative messaging, just make sure that you’re testing how those e-mails, right, the sign-ups that you get are performing versus the ones that you got in a less aggressive manner.
Pam: Oh yeah, I used to, I really hated all those, you know, those pop-ups, that have, “No, I don’t want to be a better person,” you know, but I think there’s a way to do pop-ups that is not annoying and is, you know, taking your user’s experience into consideration, you know, putting… For example, we had an exit pop-up on our blogs for a subscription pop-up. And, you know it’s an exit pop-up, so people getting in there were about to close out of their browser.
But we also had it on a timer, so that we’re only showing it to people who were there on the blog for a certain amount of time, because we wanted only, you know, encourage the people who are enjoying reading our content to subscribe because we know…. We also had it such that if someone does exit out of it, we won’t show that again to them for a certain period of time. If they come back, they are not going to see that again or exit out of it. It’s smart, so that, like, if they’re already a subscriber, you want to show them the ‘New Subscriber’, you know, that’s just consent.
So I think there is ways to be just mindful of your user’s experience when you’re designing in pop-ups and not overdo it and, you know, like you said, it’s …mindful about it.
Oli: And also the future of this is where machine learning is going to come in, and that’s going to do two things. One, it gets really smart, first of all, let’s think… So, you’re on a page; it will test automatically, exit in 10, scroll in 10, timed, quit all these things for you and say, “On this page, this performance best.”
When even smarter, hopefully, it will tie back into like a Cohort analysis and go, “But these people didn’t stick around to around this point,” or, “These became high lifetime value,” and when you can connect those things, like “This interaction model actually helped get better quality customers,” that’s when it’s going to get really smart, very intelligent, and it will start to undo some of the damage, some of the harm that’s being done because it’ll be more intelligent. That’s the…
Rand: Is there any pop-up like that?
Oli: Not really, and it is coming. I mean, Banners Exchange I think, Peep was telling me, have some pretty…
Peep: Yeah, Banners Exchange have gotten really, really smart. Their ‘under-the-hood’ stuff is impressive there. Its top-of-the-line; you know, it doesn’t do the kind of looking-at-the-Cohort’s, you know, in-the-back-end type of stuff, yes, but might be coming. I don’t know.
Kieran: Guys, I’ve got to call these off in my … I thought it great to venture into some of the questions. So I appreciate all of your information on that. We’re going to go all the way back over to Australia, to Larry. I think one of the things people were really interested in was, when it comes to… So, Pam mentioned earlier on about source of the traffic being very important and in particular, paid sometimes coverts best than a lot of the other sources like organic direct.
What are some of the key CRO …people learns specifically when it’s coming to, like, PPC or social advertising?
Larry: Sure. Well, first of all, I don’t know, like, about that statistic because, like, my paid channels are like, by far highest converting channels, like, for my own business. So maybe we should have a talk with whoever’s running your ….marketing…channels, but we’ll just look back. Basically there’s a ton of lessons for CRO that you can get from PPC. So I’ll just give you couple of crazy examples. So generally one of the most important key metrics that a CRO should be thinking in terms of PPC is click-through rate, alright?
So click-through rate is ridiculously important because what we find, when I analyze billions of dollars of ad spend, what I find is that if you can raise the click-through rate of your ads, that will, like, if you double your click-through rate, that’ll double your conversion rate. And not only that, it’ll actually, you’ll get more clicks because you’ve doubled the number of people going through, so like a four times increase. So, what the heck is happening here?
Generally, if you can get people off really, really excited about, kind of, whatever it is you are offering, that excitement generally will carry through to, like, a purchase or, like a lead stuff level like downstream. So, you know, click-through rate I think is also really important because in some ways it’s even more important than conversion rates because conversion rates are biased.
The conversion rates is only telling you, like, your offer; you know, it’s telling you how interesting that offer is to the people who’ve kind of self-selected into wanting to learn more about that offer, like they have actually clicked through there. You could be in a situation where, you know, if you have a very low click-through rate, but a very high conversion rate, that could tell you that, “Well, we’ve got a really niche market basically. We’ve got kind of a really appealing offer that appeals to like a very small amount of the total population of people who potentially buy such …” See what I’m saying?
So, like, I think, PPC in terms of click-through rates can give you a ton of perspective in terms of, like, you know, not just sampling how good your offer is amongst people who are interested in your offer but also people who are, you know, like, how appealing it is globally speaking, alright? And if it’s really not doing well from a click-through rate perspective, that should be, you know, maybe a clue to maybe consider diversifying your offers or changing it up a little bit.
Another crazy thing about PPC is that, with advertising in general, is that brand awareness plays a massive role in biasing people and thus impacting conversion rates in a huge way. Like, I’m talking, like, three, four, five times, like it’s…. I mean, you can prove this to yourself, guys. Go to your analytics, look at, like, your conversion data, and look to see, like, what’s the difference between, like, people who covert that are repeat visitors versus new visitors, right? People who are familiar with your brand versus people who are not previously familiar with your brand, and you’ll find that the conversion rates are ridiculously higher, you know, typically two, three, four, five times higher for the repeat visitors.
And so it is basically what advertising allows you to do is to go after those people and familiarize themselves with your brand so that when they do search for things that are related to the products that you’re selling, they’ll be biased, they’ll want to go with what they know, and this plays a huge role in conversion rate optimization. And of course, it would be crazy to not mention remarketing; I think remarketing is a massive CRO hack.
It’s still a paid thing, but you know, it’s changing that one opportunity to kind of get the sale, and to like have potentially dozens of opportunities to get people to remember what it is you do, and also convert at a later time. You know, people are just busy, they may have just juggle some of it….because [inaudible 0:41:27] I think you were hoping for them to do, and I think remarketing is such a game changer for them that you can kind of just have a second, or third, or fourth chance at a conversion.
Kieran: Awesome. Thanks a lot for that, Larry. I’m going to just quickly jump on to another question because I’d be entire…
Rand: I know we’re short on time, but I just want to mention one quick thing on that. What Larry mentioned, and what Pam had mentioned about paid vs organic traffics sources. So Larry, I agree with you that our paid traffic sources at Moz also convert better as a whole than our organic ones, but when it’s one-in-one, when it’s exactly the same, so for example, our paid Twitter campaigns , two landing pages that try and convert people through a product, don’t work as well as our organic tweets to those same ones.
Our Facebook ads to a product landing page don’t work as well as a Facebook organic post to the same thing. And the same is true, again, organic versus paid, SEO versus PPC; so someone searches for, you know, keyword research SEO tool, we have an ad for it, we also have an organic; the organic tends to convert I think only slightly but a little bit better than the paid traffic does. So paid is [cross-talk 0:42:43] for sure, but one-to-one, organic.
Larry: I just think you need to be more picky there. Like, who says you have to remarket to everyone who’s visiting your site? You know why not apply some demographic filters, and only remarket to, like, the people who have purchased business software in the last 60 days or something like this. So you see, I’m saying, like, I’m sure you don’t want to be in a situation where you know, you’re paying money for stuff that’s not doing better than your organic stuff, it should be many times better and then, you know, it’s like a targeting issue I think.
Rand: Okay, yeah, I should look at that.
Kieran: We’re going over to Peep. I think this is a pretty good question. It’s:
How can you…? Is there such a thing as, like, over-testing and over-optimizing? Can you just go a little bit too far?
Peep: Meaning that your conversion rate is, like, 100% and everybody buys, don’t worry [Laughter]. No, like, there is no thing as over optimization or over-testing. What you can do, what is a problematic issue is if you don’t know how to run tests, so if you stop tests too early or if you have lots of tests running at the same time that are interacting with each other, meaning biasing the results, that can happen. So it’s not about over-testing. I mean, every single day without a test running is a day wasted, so you need to be testing all the time provided that you have that traffic, because a lot of small businesses, shouldn’t be testing at all.
I mean, broadly speaking, if you have, you know, if you have less than 500 transactions a month, you shouldn’t be testing at all. If you have less than 1000, may be you can do one test a month, so to speak. So over-testing, if you test early, is possible but if you do it right, if you know what you’re doing, if you know how to run tests, there is no such thing as over-testing or over-optimizing. I mean as Larry was saying, I mean, the peak of how far we can get, I mean, the mountain is very tall, you know; we should be continuing to climb.
Larry: Yeah, but here’s the thing. So you want to turn your donkeys into unicorns; you don’t want to turn your unicorns into donkeys. You know, it’s kind of like, when you get something that’s pretty good, you know… Not every test is going to go your way, and so like, the worst you start off with, it’s kind of like, the higher the likelihood for success, and the converse is that the higher you start off, the higher the probability for failure. And so, you know, I can draw a little curve where there’s kind of, like, this optimal point where, you know, it’s like…, “It’s pretty good but let’s not turn the unicorns into donkeys.”
Peep: Well, I mean if you’re talking about the opportunity cost, that instead of optimization we could be doing something else, then yes, if it’s a lack of human resource or whatever, it can happen. But then again, we have a [cross-talk 0:45:35]… I mean, if we have a 1% win, if booking.com gets a 1% win, “Oh, that’s so small, 1%,” but, “Oh, actually, it’s another 100 million dollars,” you know.
Kieran: Okay, cool. So we are kind of going switch, you know, get towards blogs. So a lot of people who are on this are trying to figure out how to get some sort of conversion playbook for their blog, and get something tangible back from their blog. One of the questions they really wanted to know was, for you Pam, because you’ve already run every experiment that’s possible on a blog is, they have a question on
“How many CTAs should be on a blog post or landing page?”
I guess what they’re trying to get to is, like, what is the right way to try to convert someone through a blog post.
Pam: So, I don’t know if there’s, like, a specific number. I actually, in all the testing that I’ve done, one of the things that really stick out to me is that there’s a definite correlation between, you know, conversion rate and the placement of the CTA. So I’ll just give you examples. So we have, on our Marketing blog, we have really long blog posts. Some of them are 3000 words long. And so, we found essentially that, you know, all we had was that end of post ‘Call to Action’, like the [inaudible 0:46:59] of the post. Well, we ran some heatmaps and scrollmaps on our blog, we realized people weren’t even making it to the bottom of the post; they weren’t even, like, hitting the CTAs where we were banking on them to do work.
And when we started introducing CTAs higher up in the post, actually I call them ‘Anchor Text CTA’s’ – basically within the first few paragraphs, you know, “Download this e-book or this template to learn how to write a press release,” or “this press release template”. We basically doubled our conversion rate from our blog by doing that. What’s interesting is a lot of the work that I’ve done in the blog has been historically in optimizing our old post that’s continued to get a lot of traffic, mainly from search, but don’t convert very well, and I just started doing it and I just naturally started to add these, you know, ‘Anchor Text CTA’s’ near the top of the post, and what my method was just basing it off on the search terms that people were using to get to the post.
So in that present example, we have this blog post, “How to write a press release?” It ranks really highly for similarly high volume keywords around ‘How to write a press release’ and ‘Press release template’. And when I went in and conversion optimized that, I was using those keywords, I added an ‘Anchor Text CTA’ near the top, and it essentially doubled the conversion rating. For me, I’ve tried this across a ton of our historical blog posts, basically matching the keyword that they’re using to find the blog post in search, you know, using that same term in the CTA for those very relevant to that blog posts, that’s when our conversion rate, kind of, hit through the roof.
And I think you must use a combination of the relevancy of the keywords that you’re targeting in the posts, but also the placement, because you know, originally I thought that it was, I just had to do with the keywords and then I ran a study that basically looked at the breakdown of where these were coming from on the post level, like, which CTAs were actually generating all the leads, and they were, like, all accurate, like, the end of post ‘Call-to-Action’ only generated 6% of the total leads on those posts, they were all being generated from those ‘Call-to-Action’ near the top.
So I mean, I think that the takeaway here is that there’s a ton of different CTAs that you can use on your blog. You know, we try to balance it out, so if it’s a really long post like we’ll have that CTA at the beginning, we’ll have the end of post CTA, you know? Not overdoing it, but I think it’s related to how long the post is as well, because you want to give them opportunities as they’re reading through to convert if they’re ready for it.
Oli: Yeah, we’ve had, we did exactly the same thing recently, not with… We always have little text links to relevant stuff, but we had banners in the bottom saying “Pathetic performance.” We moved them up, redesigned it slightly and made them super-relevant to that paragraph. We actually had it so when you scrolled down to it, it will kind of light up – it’s like a panel as you move over, it goes, “Hey, how about me?” and it converts so well. So, you know, when you think about how many CTAs, it’s different for a blog post and a landing page. Landing page – one, that’s obvious, although if you need, you can have safety net CTAs, so may that’s on exit intent, but ideally after the conversion on the Confirmation page you can get the other thing may be you’re dying to get.
But on content, what we found, because if you look at your top 20 organic content pages, I bet half of them have outdated content, and half of them don’t have an actual CTA, they’re not actually asking for anything. We did this, if you typed “What is the landing page?” we owned that, right? Remember one in Google, we had it for seven years, and it’s a seven-year-old piece of content with lots of internal links to other places… And Rand can speak about this much better than I can about, like, say, for a legacy page like this, so what we did first, so we took out… Well, we analyzed Google Analytics. We know our best conversion path. People have to hit the landing page templates page, that if they hit that, they will be much more likely to convert.
So on this page, we stripped out every internal link in the content, we took out the Side. Nav., and we just added a CTA to say, “Hey, check out our templates” – 171% increase and people going where we wanted them to go, right? But then, so my question, I guess, for Rand is, like, what do you think about…? This page has existed for a long time, and has a lot of connections into the site. If you remove those content links, I don’t know what the impact of that might be. I mean, the result was amazing for us, but you know, I don’t know…?
Rand: Yeah, typically, I mean on a site your size, with a number of links and domains that are pointing to you and the quantity of content, that one change, even to a powerful page on the site is not going to have a massive impact. It could affect that single page or may be a couple of other pages that was linking to, but I would worry far less about that and far more about the conversion rate in general. So I think that 171%, you know, if you moved from ranking three or four for a few of those internal pages, then you were pointing to five or six, I don’t think I’d sweat that in your shoes, right? And you [cross-talk 0:52:27] to see much more movement than that given how powerful the Unbounce site is.
Oli: Yeah, and it was interesting because, you know, we took away the links, it went up maybe 20%; we took away the side bar and we added the CTA and it went to a 150%, then we took away the Side. Nav., it went to a 171%. So each one of those little things made a little difference and it was great. On a landing page, this is very different, you know, you should have a single CTA; like I said before, focus on your copywriting. I think the three most important skills for a modern marketer are writing, coding and public speaking. If you can do those three things really well, you know… marketers need to get more technical now.
It’s just like any bottleneck in business; if you have to rely on someone else, then you’re going to be slowed down. I think this is why growth hacking became popular because it gave people an identity. As technical marketers, I prefer that term; didn’t have an identity, they were looked down upon by the debt community because, “Oh you are a marketer, what do you know about debt?” A lot of people are technical and they can… I was a coder first, so I can build things without anyone’s help sloppily, and I wouldn’t want someone to look at my code, but I’m kind of free to do those things.
And also, what are you asking for on your pages is important. There’s a thing called, I call it ‘Conversion Hierarchy’, which is the conversion journey from first touch to an activated high lifetime value customer. And there are jumps in this, and if you ask for too big of a jump, people won’t convert. You have to do smaller jumps. But there are exceptions, there are accelerants you can use – video is a great accelerant, because if someone watches your video, you can push them up your way quicker and that’s how you kind of some of those things, especially I would say a workshop that shows your product or something, that would be accelerant. If you think about your conversion hierarchy you can start planning how you can move people along it.
Kieran: Cool, awesome. I’m going to try to get two more questions in before we have to wrap up. So we’re going to go across to Rand. It’s semi conversion but a lot of focus on SEO. This question is:
Should we be more skeptical about On-page SEO factors?
Rand: Should we be more…?
Kieran: Skeptical.
Rand: Skeptical? No, no, we should not be more sceptical about On-page SEO; we should just move over to the right forms of On-page SEO. I think one of the wonderful confluences of SEO and CRO is the fact that today, a high engagement rate, a low bounce rate, and a high browse rate are strongly, strongly correlated and in my opinion, actually have a causal relationship with high rankings in Google.
I think Google is looking at engagement, and they are looking at how traffic performs on a website and they are looking at bounce rate, and what they call ‘pogo-sticking’, where you bounce back to the SERP and you click on someone else’s result, and for that reason, we need to do an extraordinarily good job of converting our visitors into people who stay, people who engage with the site and people who find their answer on our page. If we don’t do that, we are going to lose in rankings as well, and so target On-page SEO, a huge part of On-page SEO is satisfying the searcher – that is basically a conversion rate optimization activity, just a different form of it.
Larry: Demand.
Kieran: Go ahead, Larry.
Larry: Oh, I was just expressing my support of what Rand just said.
Rand: Spot-on.
Kieran: Okay, cool. So let’s go quickly to Peep, I think we have time for two more questions, I see, so let’s go quickly to Peep. I think people ask this all the time when trying to get started with CRO is,
how long should they run a test for?
Peep: How long should they run a test for? There are three factors that you should take into consideration before deciding when to stop a test. But first of all, you need to calculate the sample size ahead of time before you launch a test. So sample size is how many people need to be part of the experiment before we can trust the results. And you can just Google sample size calculator; Optimizely has one, VWO has one, there are many independent ones. And so you put in your existing baseline conversion rate for that specific page that you’re running the test on.
So if it’s, say, your Checkout page, your conversion rate for that page might be, you know, like 90%, so you put in that, the minimum uplift you want to be able to detect – you know, maybe it’s 5%, 10%, whatever – and it will tell you how many people you need per variation. So that’s one. You should not stop the test before you have at least that many people in a variation.
Two is you need time representation – test duration. So, you know, if you’re Amazon or Booking.com, you can get a 100,000 people per variation in like, five minutes. So is that, is your test done now? No, because now you’re taking a convenient sample, not a representative sample of people.
So you need at minimum seven days’ worth of traffic because every, you know, people on Monday behave different from people that come to your site on a Friday, and may be that one week is an [outlier] too, so it’s better to test for at least two weeks and may be even four weeks, so, two to four weeks’ duration. And once those two criteria have been met, only then you look at your statistical significance or, you know, if you use patient statistics, the probability of B being better than A.
Rand: Peep, would you ever cut off a test early because the results just looked too damned good?
Peep: Too damned good? No, never. But if there’s a…result look terrible, then yes, I don’t hesitate to kill it early. But if it’s too good to be true, oh my God, then it’s like… I mean, I’ve seen it too many times when a huge winner after one week is no difference after four weeks, so…
Rand: Realist, hmm?
Peep: Yeah.
Oli: I mean, every single A/B test pretty much will do this at the beginning. It’ll spike, there’ll be a big difference because the sample size is so small, there’s a high variance, and they all flat line, and then they may see some change but until you’ve gone through that experience and trusted it several times, and you see that kind of behaviour, you don’t even believe it’s true.
Peep: Be skeptical of “too good to be true” results, you know; I guess they probably are.
Larry: That’s all the time, or 90% of the time it does, like, the winner becomes the loser or whatever, you know.
Rand: Well, I have a landing page right now that’s converting about one out of every 12000 visits.
Oli: [Laughter]
Rand: I’m serious, I’m totally serious. And I’m currently hoping I’ve a new landing page that’s been in the queue to be built at Moz for the last four weeks – I think it’ll be another two of four weeks before it gets launched, but then I’m wondering, you know, “If it starts winning within a day or two, can I just be like, ‘Okay, see, there we go, that was what was missing.’”
Oli: 2 out of 12,000 [Laughter].
Larry: It would be hard to go down from there, Rand.
Rand: Really, it is the shittiest landing page I’ve ever built.
Oli: It’s really donkey, donkey by definition, yeah.
Rand: No, no donkey, it’s a much lower form of life; it’s like a tardigrade. [Laughter]
Oli: [Laughter] Donkey shit.
Kieran: Okay, we’re going to end with this final question. So I’ll put that to you, Rand, but please, anyone pitch in. It’s an interesting question, I’m not sure this person has a clear zone on ….they do …CRO. After all this is:
What line do you draw between CRO and great hack marketing, and is there a line?
Rand: Yeah, I certainly believe that there is….I think that the CRO can be viewed in two ways. It can be viewed as a long-term exercise in building high-value, high quality customers who love your brand and want to amplify and share it and are proud to be customers, or it can be used to get a lot of money quickly from people who are then very upset with you in the future.
And there are numerous ways that this can be done but I would urge folks who are interested in this topic to check out a great article recently on dark patterns. Let me see if I can…’Dark patterns in UI’, and… Yeah, so this is…Let’s see, there’s a good one from The Verge, couple of years ago called ‘Dark Patterns: Inside the interfaces designed to trick you.’
There’s another one more recently, oh, from the New York Times called, ‘When websites won’t take NO for an answer.’ And they talk about these exploitative techniques as well. I think that, you know, you have to decide for yourself what you’re trying to build. If you are an information products affiliate marketer, and all you’re trying to do is maximize your one-day revenue, you’re probably going to go down that dark pattern path and not care about it.
But if you’re a brand trying to build long-term customer happiness and success, you should be very cautious about the degree to which you increase conversion rate on a particular page or particular effort, but cost yourself brand trust and happiness. You can see this in the sales world as well, right? I know plenty of SaaS companies whose sales people are effective but so aggressive that despite their relatively high conversion rates, they’ve turned eight of the ten people they talk to into permanent detractors for their company.
Oli: Yeah, travel companies, you know, sometimes are terrible at that. There’s a lots of dagger in hand stuff going on there. People are orbited in and fall to insurance and things like that, which is terrible. Like, most people don’t need travel insurance….but yeah.
Kieran: Okay, cool. So I’ve hit the 60 minute mark we missed, I will take full responsibility to this, I think we missed three questions. I’m not a good time-keeper even in my own personal life, so…[Laughter]
Rand: We forgive you because, you know, your Irish accent, Kieran. You could say and do anything. We missed the full mark.
Oli: [Laughter]
Kieran: If you could ….the Irish.
Oli: This one started with L and then because you hit Liar pretty quickly.
Larry: Totally ….potato. [Laughter]
Kieran: You could read [inaudible 1:03:10] thread, that I tried to draw here, but ….now that you’re got…backwards, so its…
Rand: That reads okay.
Oli: That’s fun.
Kieran: bitly/CROthread, over at Inbound.org, so you can go, get involved in the discussion. We have some great speakers who were kind enough to go there, and answer some questions. As a reminder, we have got an email record out to everyone, so you’ll have all of this information. I want to just quickly say thank you very much, to Pam, Larry, Oli, Peep and Rand for joining us across the globe. This has been a great 60 minutes that had a ton of interesting information. I have learned a lot. I hope you guys learned a lot. Thank you very much for joining us. Thank you everyone for joining in. And yeah, we’re going to stop broadcasting now and that means …will go offline. [Laughter]
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